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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

We at archive.org now realize that our mistaken attempts to move quickly were based on what we thought the Grateful Dead wanted.
For this we apologize both to the Grateful Dead and their community.
There has been a great deal of reaction, our actions have caused more than necessary.

We believe these changes will be more appropriate for both the Grateful Dead and its community:

* Audience recordings will be restored as they were before-- for download and streaming.

* Soundboard recordings will be available streaming only.

Thank you all for helping guide this process. There may be changes in the future, but for now there is access to great concerts,
and the audience recordings may be downloaded from here freely.

This will take a day or two to fully implement.

See also Phil Lesh's note: http://www.phillesh.net/philzonepages/friends_stuff/hotline.html

-brewster
Founder, Digital Librarian Internet Archive

-Matt Vernon
Volunteer Archive.org




This post was modified by brewster on 2005-11-30 21:26:19

This post was modified by brewster on 2005-12-01 14:29:10

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Poster: strats Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:41pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I can find the streaming soundboards... are they not back yet?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

They are not back yet-- that may take another day.

I just got a call from jon aizen who has been working on the aud's and they are back now.

let'em rip.

-brewster

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Poster: L Dubya Date: Dec 2, 2005 11:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for giving back downloads of music from the world's greatest band -- we understand the value if the soundboard recordings but the audience tapes are in a different catagory -- donated to the people, by the people. For this I will once again proudly make purchases from GD merchandising.

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Poster: JohnnyV Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm glad that at least the audience recordings are back, and I'm bummed the soundboards only stream, but whatever, I'm not losing sleep over it.

I would like to make 2 requests:

1) put back all the reviews, even for the shows no longer available. One of the biggest delights for me about this site was reading what fellow Deadheads have to say about shows.

2) is it possible to put back just the soundboards of the songs that complete shows released by the Grateful Dead? Many of the Dick's Picks releases are missing some songs (for a variety of reasons, usually technical troubles at the time of the gig), and as a completist, going to Archive.org and getting the missing songs was a ritual, and pretty much the main reason I visited. Please advise us if this is possible. Thanks gang!

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Poster: twickertweeds Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

this is really unfortunate because like many others ive been listening to many of the shows here on the archive its also unfortunate because this makes me lose respect for the remaining members im sad to say this but what is the reasoning behind this to have all their music so abrubtly pulled offline what happened to the deads rules about sharing all their music except released recordings im very dissapointed in these actions... Go Jerry

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Poster: doodle Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Since no one else is weighing in on this, I will (sarcasm, :o). Anyway, glad to have the Auds back (secretly, I'm an aud fan deep down). I hope people start to ease up on the soundbaord situation though. Yes, "once we're done with it, it's yours", but a lot has changed. I used to trade with the same handful of people and it took a while to build a collection. Now, upload a show, and 'BAM' - 5000 people have it in 2 days. Couple that with the fact that the dead aren't a road or recording band anymore, and well, things have changed a bit. Let them sell their soundboards, it's their right, isn't it? But we still get to trade auds (oh, and the THOUSANDS of soundboards out in circulation already, if you don't want to drop the bucks once or twice a year). We should stop griping, this is a pretty good evolution of the situation. In fact, it's grown pretty much back into the way it used to be, didn't it? And that's when we all started to do this, I believe. So, that's not so bad is it? Just some chicken soup for the soul, baby.

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Poster: tad449 Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

It's just a drag this has happened. All these guys have more $$$ than I am likely to ever to see. I just enjoy the music. There will inevitably be other sources. Sorry to see the cheapness showing its face like this. Sharing is a beautiful way to screw w/ cpitolism. Sure the sbs are 'Your property' Protect them count them enjoy them ok? ka ching ka ching merry christmas

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Poster: Oakland Charlie Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Brewster, thanks for dealing with a crazy situation - For the record, the Soundboards need to be re-instated, the situation is not resolved until all the music is replaced...thanks again

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Poster: ocat Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thank you to Archive for hosting all the Dead shows in whatever form. For a novice computer guy like myself you've made it easy to listen to some of the great shows I was able to attend over the years. And thank you also for listening to those fans who expressed their dissappointment in an appropriate manner.

To all the "Deadheads" who chose to spew vitriol and contempt instead of being patient, learn from those of us who have been around for a while, and know that "love will see you through". If you can't (or don't want to) get it, maybe being a Deadhead isn't what you were meant to be.

And to all of you who doubted Phil Lesh's integrity - shame on you.

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Poster: crazymoon Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:24pm
Forum: etree Subject: Isn't it a little late to stick a finger in the dyke?

I know I downloaded a bunch of soundboards and you probably downloaded a bunch of different ones as did she & him & you over there....Lets just say we wont be waiting by the mailbox for some XL-IIS's if you know what I mean..and I think you do!

Peace
Timo

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Poster: lhsmith Date: Dec 4, 2005 12:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Can you use my grateful dead tapes? I have converted over 120 shows or sets into digital files. They represent the best of over 300 that I got from an acquaintence. I'd love to share them. Most I think are audience tapes. Thanks for your advice. LSmith

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Poster: gratefulgbee Date: Dec 15, 2005 8:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm an old guy and I don't listen to much other than the Grateful Dead, thanks to Debra, but this discussion makes me very sad because for 20 years I have been lofted by the creative energy in their music.

Yes, I have traded cassettes. I own bootleg vinyl. I also own the entire Dick' Pick's series. Last month, I happened upon The Archive.org resource and was astounded. This must be Terrapin. Quality Grateful Dead music, organized and maintain by quality people. The Music Never Stopped.

Now,audience tapes would certainly satisfy my heart, if not my ears, but after reading these posts I know their music won't ever sound the same. I wish I'd never heard of the archive. To hear Bob sing the last line of "Me and my Uncle" will have a whole new (and unbearable) meaning.

This discussion is about legality and copyright and compensation and "deadication". People are arguing whether Bob is rich or not and the lineage and legality of SBDs.

The one thing it is not about is music. I'm so sad. I'm afraid to read anymore posts because the arguments may just destroy what the Grateful Dead has been all about for me.

We all know what Jerry would say and it would end this whole bad vibe instantly. He would say the same thing he'd say when Bob went off on one of his stupid "stoeries".

"Hey, f*ck it, man. Let's play."

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 15, 2005 8:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a post over two weeks old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-16 04:55:05

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Poster: DEADBUCK Date: Dec 15, 2005 9:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

you are responding to somebody who is responding to a post that is over 25 years old. And My best guess is that you will be for the entirety of your time at the archive. The most constructive thing you can do is to realize that the majority of the peole who come to Live Music Archives are Heads and if nor for them coming this Archive would likely not be seen by half of the peole ... and then sadly alot of hard work by yourself and others would go unnoticed..not to mention all the great material that is in the Archives. Indeed I have begun to move on...in a sense, to see other sections of the archive. There is a lot of great things here. But alas, the dead is still the best part.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 15, 2005 10:10pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Glad you're starting to grok the "Copernican universe" here (where the sun actually *doesn't* revolve around the Grateful Dead). ;) Here's a nice post by Brad that puts it into perspective:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879

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Poster: jammy Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

This is a good compromise imo. Allows us to get audience's we want, sample shows and see what we like to purchase officially and trade via snail mail, vines B&P etc. Too bad it had to be such a bad PR move on their part and create so much anger, sense of entitlement and overall ill-feeling in this community. If only this had been handled differently by all parties involved.

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Poster: dwill1188 Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

thank you brewster. we will always love yall. sooooo happy to add to my gd collection!

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Poster: corwin Date: Feb 1, 2006 1:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Let me see if im correct,Heatly use to allow Tapers to patch into the board to see how he sounded and to adjust for the boyzz? so in escence some of those tapes made that heatly used to increase the sound does not belong to the fans?i am curious as to when the dead had tapes missing from the fault who did hey turn to then and now to find old gems.......ahhhhhh tapers!!! bobby bro man really what the hell?do as i say not as i do?
peace...
cassidyryder

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Poster: samsonaya Date: Dec 11, 2005 4:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I thought the Deads original policy and request to their listeners was that they encouraged people to share shows as long as there was no profit made from it. Now the Deads management, the Dead as well as lots of other people are making all kinds of money on the live shows now. For $12.99 you can get pretty much any show from Dead.net in crappy MP3 format...but wait! there's more!! you can spend 5-10 extra dollars and have a high quality high bit-rate version. So tell me this....who's making money from the Deads live recordings now? Just a thought. Love the music but it is becoming it's own industry. I wonder what Jerry would think.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 11, 2005 4:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

I'm sorry, the most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Please see
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565
Thanks.

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Yes, this is both a big step up from the situation this past week, and also a big step down from what had been possible before.

What I'm not seeing in all of the discussion is the fact that CD-quality SBD recordings can still be traded by BitTorrent, as at bt.etree.org. At the moment, there are a number of exceptionally generous people making available some great SBD recordings, and this is just the tip of the iceberg of what's possible. If you haven't been there already, check it out, download a BitTorrent client, and get started.

The BitTorrent approach requires more dedication (and HD space and bandwidth) on the part of our community, but if we work together we can still preserve broad access to the best of the vast SBD collection--without resorting to stamps and envelopes. Remember, the files are all out there on our respective drives! If we each do our part to make them available, we can more or less reconsitute the resources we once had.

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Poster: zkdunn Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

As Phil notes at his site:
http://www.phillesh.net/philzonepages/friends_stuff/hotline.html
IA is a great place to research along w/ being THE # place for Dead Music. For a moment there, I feared the loss of all the wonderful material found at the DeadList Project link. Just last week I had to dust off my DeadBase XI to find the first live Crazy Fingers...
Glad your back...suggestion; can you rate the top 100 downloaded (and streamed) shows? It would be fun to compare to the extremely small data base collected by DeadBase.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Dec 17, 2005 11:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Jesus. Some of the flamers here certainly appear to be rather Un-Grateful. Ever heard of intellectual property rights? Like it or not, the SBD's are a product of the Dead enterprise. They can, at their discretion, exercise any rights endowed to them by law with regard to their own intellectual property.

FYI, they didn't make it free, the submitting tapers did. They also didn't take back the original SBD, they only restricted the availability of it. We should be thankful that it lasted as long as it did.

The catalog of music created by the GD is a finite thing...the last page written when the fat lady sang for the fatman. Nevertheless, the business entity has an ongoing responsibility to the survivors still engaged in supporting a huge family of employees, their children and their childrens children.

The issue here is not about who owns the SBD's, but about a living legacy and enterprise that benefits those who poured their lives into the traveling circus known as the Grateful Dead. We all know some are more money driven than others, and they'll be judged when the wheel comes round. The others deserve being rewarded for their years of meritorious service, and that includes royalties from the vault.

Some suggest that the band actually owes us something. Well doesn't it say something when our most beloved lies down and dies after the most maligned road experience we've ever given them? Do you think the Captain was a junkie because he loved the expectations we heaped on him year after year, tour after tour? Look at what happened when our greed and self control got out of hand.

There's a fine line between freedom and anarchy...and we should all learn the difference. Be thankful for what they've given, it's more than you'll get anywhere else.

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Poster: A_S_O Date: Dec 18, 2005 7:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

This sucks.. but like it or not, "one way or another, this darkness got to give".. . we will get our GD SBD's one way or another........

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Poster: DisguisedAsASquirrel Date: Dec 18, 2005 9:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology...Go get the AUDs. There are some goodies out there!

I've been a SBD devotee for some time now. I'm sort of glad the SBDs have gotten canned here. I can listen to them, and decide what I really value enough to make the effort to go out hunt them down. On the other hand, those AUD's, the good ones, are a whole other trip. If you categorically ignore AUDs in favor of SBDs you're missing out. I'm not telling you to go out and get that '69 show they played in Brooklyn as an AUD and listen to it on your $4,000 system; but check out some of the higher quality ones. They're different. Not better, per se, just different. Try it. You'll like it. All the cool kids are doing it. It'll make you fly.

For starters, try 10.14.83. Its definitely worth the DL.

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Poster: DisguisedAsASquirrel Date: Dec 18, 2005 2:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Yeah Earl, we killed Jerry. I liked your post until you started slingin' it a bit. I think that last piece was a reductio ad absurdum.

Quod erat demonstradum ¡

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 18, 2005 4:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a topic several weeks old. Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-18 12:22:03

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Poster: cardgamermanguy Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Sweet.

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Poster: laughingbones Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive


I think this is a fair and happy medium. AUD's are available for download. This is good, and demonstrates respect for the hardwork and commintment of the tapers.

SBD's are available for stream here. This is also good for people who like to point, click, and stream.

Guess what folks? The SBD's are also still available to all of us to who have a little time and inlincation through trades, torrents, etc, just like the good old days...

I still think THE WAY all this went down have pissed off a lot of folks and it will take a while to repair the trust lost between GDM and the fans, but for now I think this comprise is fair...

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 9:22pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

[moderated] wrote

"I think this is a fair and happy medium. AUD's are available for download. This is good, and demonstrates respect for the hardwork and commintment of the tapers. "

What about the hardwork and commitment of the people who collected and uploaded their incredible soundboard recordings?

I swear, Deadheads are really hapless when it comes to taking a stand. The sort of attitude I see around here reminds me of the folks who say stuff like, "Don't criticize George Bush. After all, he is the elected President of our country."

Spare me.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 05:22:36

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Poster: jammy Date: Dec 1, 2005 4:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I saw on DNC that Charlie Miller (who uploaded tons of shows to archive) said he agreed with GDP move on pulling the boards even before last nights compromise. I bet many of the other tapers/uploaders feel the same way. It was great to have them there and it still is good to have ability to stream them and read the reviews (dr.flashback). It wasn't our right (imo) to have the boards, but it sure was nice. If GDP comes down on trading, vining, or on our home collections then I might change my tune. At present we now have 100's of graet quality shows in much larger circulation then before LMA came about. And they are still available, but not with one click of your mouse.

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: News, but where is GD's Apology???

Thank you Brewster for the update. Thanks also for your humility in offering an apology. However I don't think anyone here needed an apology from you guys. You’ve always done all you could to keep as much music as possible available to us. Sure we sometimes bitch and moan that you aren't being as transparent as we like, but that's our problem not yours.

The party that needs to apologize is GDP, specifically Mr. McNally. His disingenuous remarks regarding the reason for the shows being pulled, and his totally dishonest accusations regarding IA not building 'community' and not representing ‘Grateful Dead Values’ is without excuse.

It is wonderful to have OUR auds back, and being able to stream the boards is a privilege we should all value. Had this arrangement been brokered between the band and IA in the beginning, without the ‘spin’ and lies, they would have avoided much unnecessary ill will.

Congrats to IA on going from 'not representing Grateful Dead Values' to being granted permision to host Auds and boards all in one day! You rock!!



This post was modified by Ole Uncle John on 2005-12-01 15:20:06

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Poster: The Other Other One aka Tristan Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

What a joke, only not funny at all. Bring back the SBD's! They were being actively traded before this fabulous site ever came about. I'm just dumbfounded reading about Bob, Mick and Bill. WTF?!?!?!? Never thought I'd see the day. Remember guys, "let there be songs to fill the air".

Funny thing is, I own EVERY Dick's Picks along with a shiteload of other GDM stuff. Access to all the wonderful Boards sure didn't stop me from opening my wallet. Wonder what affect NOT having access to those very same boards may have on my spending habits? "Well I know only this" GDM won't like it one bit. I'm done spending. I'll just sit back and enjoy my AUDs.

To Brewster & Co: Thanks and keep up the good work.

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Poster: OBIEtree Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

What about the hardwork and commitment of the people who collected and uploaded their incredible soundboard recordings?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

as one of the people that helped collect the original SHNs and sent them to Sweden on HDs at the begining of the complete year projects, we always knew that SBDs where a gray area and were not going to push the band to make a decision on them, by asking if it was okay.
they were clearly, in my opinion, never covered under any of the bands trading/taping policies which are about "recordings made by audience members at the shows". some people disagreed with this and we decided to try including them with the AUDs in the collection. we never received permission from GDP for anything in the collection, it was more of implied consent via parsing of the MP3 policy.

now that the band has made the gray area clear, we know that SBDs are NOT covered under thier trading policy.

there's no reason to put the AUDs at risk because people feel entitled to SBDs.

we made a decision early on to include the SBDs in the project and if they became a sticking point they would disappear to keep the ability to share the AUDs.

it happened and we were lucky to have had 18 months of them online before the band's lawyers figured out the loophole we used in the policy.

OBIE

This post was modified by OBIEtree on 2005-12-01 13:37:11

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Poster: aikani Date: Dec 6, 2005 1:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

actually, the proof of this gray area is/was listed on each and every taper ticket, that ticket contained a license allowing the person to bring in recording equiptment, and to record the particular show, and to distribute copies of that recording as long as NO profit was made for the distribution. In other words the band granted a limited revokable license. In no way did that license authorize anyone to patch into the soundboard and make a copy of the show in that manner.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Someone wrote

"as one of the people that helped collect the original SHNs and sent them to Sweden on HDs at the begining of the complete year projects, we always knew that SBDs where a gray area"

Question: how did you "know" this was a gray area?

What is your reasoning?

Where do your soundboard recordings come from and when you received the soundboards were you told not to distribute them?

Is a digital tape of a David Gans broadcast of a soundboard of a Dead show permitted for uploading and downloading? If not, why not?????

I ***NEVER*** heard of any policy of the band against ***freely*** distributing board recordings.

I repeat: I ***NEVER*** heard of any policy of the band against ***freely*** distributing board recordings.

There is a reason for that: there never was any such policy. Whether or not the policy about copying boards was expressly written or not, there was never any question about what the policy was: go for it, just don't sell it.

Everyone here knows this.

Back in the old days -- like ten years ago -- the Bay Area Tapers Group distributed crispy soundboards in analog and digital copies. Taping groups distributing soundboards were totally above board, all the time.

Not a peep was heard from anyone. On the contrary, I remember David Crosby was happy that someone was distributing the David and the Dorks shows in any format.

This is all about greed. This about the Dead trying to cash in without doing any work.

I've been buying Dick's Picks when the shows are worth buying (and when they don't go out of print before I even hear about them -- HINT HINT MORONS) but let's face it -- the packaging for most of those CDs is beyond lame and the selection of shows STINKS compared to the shows that I was able to find on the archive more or less instantly.

At the rate at which pre-'74 shows are being released by the band, I'll literally be dead (but not grateful) by the time the best stuff gets "officially released."

So what is the point of all this "no downloading of boards" nonsense???

Again: the point is money. Money, money, money! just as Bob Weir sang in one of the worst songs he ever wrote.

The apologists for the band's recent actions really need to work harder to come up with explanations. To hear someone who ALREADY OWNS a buttload of downloaded shows engage in backflips to justify the band's new restrictions is somewhat sickening.

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Poster: OBIEtree Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

you have no idea of what went on to put the project together and yes i have a lot of the stuff, i traded for it from people on etree.
lots of bubble mailer, stamps and time burning CDs and you know what that can still happen.

if you can show me where the permission to distribute SBDs is i'd like to see it.
as far as i can tell, and i've asked lots of people, SBDs were never part of the GD trading policy.

as for what is the gray area i mentioned, sometimes asking a question gets an answer you might not like so you don't ask the question, leaving it in the gray area.

OBIE


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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

OBIE

"if you can show me where the permission to distribute SBDs is i'd like to see it."

Are you serious? Are you saying that you need an EXPRESS statement from the Dead saying: "The Grateful Dead hereby authorize the free distribution of live recordings of the band taken from the band's soundboard," before you can do so legally?

That is a very strange position to take, inlight of the fact that thousands of soundboard tapes somehow made into the public domain and for more than a quarter century the Dead made NOT A PEEP!!!!!

On the contrary, as you undoubtedly know (but for some strange reason you refuse to admit here),the Dead are on the record probably hundreds of times over the past several decades PROUDLY proclaiming their laisez-faire attitude to the distribution of live recordings.

Until the disturbing events of the past two weeks, I *never* heard anyone make the arguments that certain 'heads are now lining up to make! "The Dead never permitted free distribution of soundboard recordings."

Really? This is news to me and what I'm struggling to understand is (1) who is writing the script and (2) why are Deadheads so eager to recite it?

Does anyone remember Usenet, when groups like the Bay Area Tapers Group seeded tape (analog and DIGITAL) trees with uncirculating BOARD tapes? All right out in the open. I participated in those trees and there were HOURS of discussion about how to distribute the tapes, keep the sound quality as high as possible, etc., with people whose connection to the organization was only a degree from the core, if that. And guess what? The issue of whether the Dead "really permitted" the distribution of soundboard recordings was never raised.

Of course, that was mostly back when the Dead (with Garcia) were still playing and weren't focused on how to treat their fans like chumps by threatening to sue them for continuing to distribute soundboard recordings previously in the public domain.

"as far as i can tell, and i've asked lots of people, SBDs were never part of the GD trading policy."

I've asked lots of people, too, and I find the opposite is true.

[redundant flamebait snipped- mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 12:44:54

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Poster: BensDad Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

THANK YOU OBIEetree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am glad that someone FINALLY admitted to that fact.

Now it ALL makes perfect sense (to me at least)

If you keep digging..you are eventually gonna get a lot of dirt. ;)

Thanks again for the insight.

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Poster: carloscanada Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I think its great that the archive can continue, even if only audience recordings, the Dead obviously have the right to control their 'vault' recordings and no doubt will make them all accessible as was planned way back when at 'terrapin station'. I enjoyed reading phils book and looking up shows he had mentioned or reading "the illustrated trip' which highlights memorable shows and being able to hear them. Thank you archive and the Grateful Dead for making the music and making it possible to hear it.

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Poster: Gratefulpaul Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I hope that they'll see the light and restore all of the shows. I first came around to the Dead through tapes that led me to buy tickets, tee-shirts, Albums, CDs, videos, DVDs, etc. Since I started using the archive, I have bought CDs, DVDs, tee-shirts and tickets to Ratdog after more than twelve years spent away from the Dead community. The archive got me back in, connected me to other Deadheads, and got me to share the music with many new and old friends. When they wish to issue a CD or digital download, pull it off the archive - I'll buy it because it will sound better. Please restore all of the music - the sharing of the music is what has always created dedicated Deadheads who will share free music and buy other items from the Grateful Dead.

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Poster: Jack Straw from Carolina Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I can not say what is right or wrong since I do not know all sides of the matter. I believe the band deserve the royalties. I have purchased almost every recording released and would have continued to do so. But my interest has been greatly increased by being able to download soundboard recordings of concerts near each release, as well as others. I listen in my car during my 45 minute commute to work. I don't listen on my computer; my time at home belongs to my family. Streaming won't work for me. I have been so proud of the free access to clear soundboard recordings, and used them to turn others onto the music - audience recordings rarely do that. I am sad. No more, no less.

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Poster: Jack Straw from FAllbrook Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I agree with JS from Carolina. In addition I feel betrayed. I grew up in the Bay Area with the Dead. Having first seen the band in 1967, then an additional 100+ times over the following decades. Plus the MANY shows with New Riders, the Jerry Garcia Band many incarnations, Kingfish, Midnight's, Ratdog, Mickey's various bands, Other Ones, Dead......etc. .. you get my drift. I have purchased all LP's THEN purchased all CD's when that technology arrived. Purchased MUCH merchandise at shows and thru Dead.net sales. Was one of the VERY early tape traders back in the day, and have downloaded many shows to listen to at my liesure, not on computer. I never sold any GD music nor did I ever violate their posted guidelines for sharing their music. Streaming does nothing for me, never did. I feel I've paid my dues. They've paid their dues also so it's a push. Don't change horses in mid-stream due to the bean-counters they now employ. This announcement and decision to change the rules were obviously made, not by my generation, but by money-mongers from a generation that don't understand the sense of family most of us have had over the past 4 decades. Don't screw your brother brother! Keep on truckin' and writing these forums to complain. Only then may Bobby, Phil, Mickey and Billy hear our voices and make things the way they were!

Jack Straw in Fallbrook

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 3, 2005 6:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Truckin' forward on the Internet Archive

Keep on truckin' and writing these forums to complain.

No, please don't just keep complaining here, as it will not be fruitful. Truckin' is fine, but at this time we should be truckin' toward the broader horizon beyond this little ditch we stumbled into.

Here is some wise advice:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49775
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49814

"We have something going here," one of those messages says. Indeed we do! Willy nilly, we've suddenly got a little higher profile for this LMA collection here. It would be wonderful to shake even more music, even more varied music out of that extra notice!

The Grateful Dead were a nexus for so many musical styles; I imagine some of their fans share their broad musical perspective. Do you have any other favorite live musicians? Are they trade friendly? If so, check our FAQs for tips and then see if you can persuade them to have some of their music be here too!

-Diana, a volunteer LMA curator

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-03 14:35:02

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Poster: dynohmike Date: Dec 3, 2005 6:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Truckin' forward on the Internet Archive

Diana, I sincerily apologize if I seem like one of the whiney people complaining but my life revolves around art, mainly Dead music. I just feel, in my heart of hearts which may not be much, that Jerry would frown on this. I want to be able to share his love, life and joy with my friends and my kids in the future. I think people who weren't lucky enough to be there should be lucky enough to share in loving art. That's how I see this and I hope those of us who are frustrated are able to be understood.

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Poster: saltyspaghetti Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

The archive is something that came about through the generosity of people who benefitted from the explosive growth of public use of the internet. It is one of my favorite things about my culture. When I discovered archive.org, my reaction was "yes, THIS is what the internet is capable of, this is something I can be proud to participate in."
While I understand Chris U.'s anger, I think that the issue of copyright, although an important question in the grand scheme, is not relevant.
Sharing music on the LMA is, and always has been, subject to permission from the ARTIST, which can be revoked for any reason at any time. It's probably true that recordings made by tapers are their own property, intellectual and otherwise, but if the band wants that music removed from the LMA, for whatever reason, it must be removed.
The trust and goodwill of artists participating in the archive is the most important asset in terms of future growth and the continued willingness of bands to share their music.
From what I understand, the Dead have not banned trading existing digital SBD's, they've simply indicated their unwillingness to participate in the archive to the extent that we've grown accustomed to. That's frustrating, and disappointing, but not illegal, and possibly temporary.
Continually badmouthing members of the band and accusing them of dishonesty is not likely to persuade anyone that further participation is a good idea.
So maybe in the interests of preserving a resource we all seem to care a lot about, we should direct the discussion towards more positive ends, and generating more constructive ideas about how we'd like the situation to change.

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Poster: josewavo Date: Dec 3, 2005 6:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

One of the more intelligent resposes I've seen but it still misses the point slightly. While it is true the band can withdraw for any reason, we now know trhough Phill's admission that at least one of the band members was not consulted prior to the removal of the boards. As heard on his interview, (and I wish I knew how to provide the link to that or the link to the person who was among the initial uploaders/originators of this 'pure service'), Bob implies it was his decision because everybody was scattered. You mean he doesn't have Phil's phone number or could get it easily enough? Nobody is buying this explination nor should they and that's why people are upset with BW. He has taken it upon himself to close the door to one of the greastest and coolest sources of scholarly endeavors ever seen. He has closed the door to the library because he wants to one day charge for the material inside. It's like taking a library that we all contributed to and one day changing the sign to say "Book Store"...and not because we the participants didn't honor our obligations to keep it non-commercial.This is a stoner move and it brings up my second point.
There are those among us who have quanities of music that we will trade and exchange in order to maintain our hunger for this music. It's like musical chairs at this point, we got what we got and now the old tape trading days are back. Does this new ballgame now preclude today's technology? Are there not 'other servers' out there that will allow peer-to-peer communication? Will the music ever stop?
BW didn't think this move through nor did any of his "yes" people. If he restores the boards we might be able to move on and forget this little incident. The GD can then augment their marketing strategies with CD's of The Best Of Brent or The Best Of Pig Pen, how about some video footage of Pig that must have been clipped from the recent Festival Express DVD. Is this crew so berift of creativity that they can't keep up with technology in a way other than saying to the faithful, "we've changed our minds, no more sharing, it's all mine."...and then close out with a "see ya". No Bob you wont and if you don't restore the boards to the library it's gonna hurt you, the whole GD production team and ultimitly all of us in the end. Folks are still gonna trade boards, keeping them in circulation, while the bitter feelings for this egregious move on your part will continue and our whole family will be forced to choose sides, contend with the discontent and respond to this selfish decision the only way we know how. Put the Goose back and figure out a way to marget your goods without renigging on a promise. We kept our end of the bargin, you need to keep yours. It's what any honorable person would do.

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Poster: dr. flashback Date: Dec 3, 2005 8:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Excellent post Jose,
Well it's clear that Bob took what was a financial and legal issue about access to LAMA SBD's, and with his usual bungling stupidity - made it almost a personal issue. It's the closest thing to a personal attack (calling us jerks) that I've heard from their side yet.
I'm beyong angry about this. Bob's interview just put it over into the sad and pathetic catagory for me. We've all known for years he was a spaced out, spit-spewing, lyric-forgetting goofus, but we forgave and tolerated Bob's screaming and horrible slide playing - because we assumed he was, at heart, a kind and conscious being who put art and spirit above money. Now we know differently.
Bob is gonna regret saying those words, sooner than later. You don't piss off the fan base for a band that's not even touring anymore - and whose staff has already suffered layoffs. Real smart Bob.
There's only three ways this situation will change that I can see.
1. The negative press and backlash from fans gets so bad they find they're spending too much time and energy on the defense constantly. This has already spoiled the "40th anniversary" new website debut - put a dark cloud over it.
They are forced to compromise with the fan base. This is the soonest possibility - but not that likely I'm afraid.
2. The boycott has some effect on them financially. This is a very likely possibility, I believe, but it may take close to a year before they see the sales decline enough to be concerned.
I also predict that the downloads are and will not sell very well. But again, it may take time for them to admit their failure.
3. Some kind of legal action, which could force a new arrangement between traders and the band. This could also be a long time happening. And it's not likely that GDP would take the even more foolish step of suing a fan for having an FTP site. Hopefully, if things change later on, it won't go this route.
Dr. Flashback

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Poster: waynomo Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

So anyone know the content of the original message received by Archive? I would like to read it and see where the misunderstanding occurred. It still seems the error was on the part of Grateful Dead Productions.

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Whose Soundboards?

A good friend who's been to several hundred shows made some particularly astute points to me today. We, the audience, own the audience tapes, hence their availability for download. The band, on the other hand, own the soundboards. Folks like Dan Healy and others made them available to some people, who then dubbed them into multigenerational tapes for dispersal amongst the community. My friend Tortoise asserts that he "worked hard to earn the 150 soundboard shows he has on tape by contacting traders out of the back of Relix in the days before the internet became the forum for this sort of thing." The SBDs belong to *the band* and we have been mighty priveleged to have them at all.

For those who believe that the band members are jelly-rolling along in dough, it may be useful to recall the band becoming bankrupt in 1974 due to poor business management. This was at a time when they were a touring juggernaut with a string of solid albums, both live and canned. It can happen again and who are we to expect near senior citizens to carry on with the sort of touring schedule necessary to live their notion of the American Dream? Who are we to judge what that Dream should encompass??

I encourage everyone to get over it and get out some postage stamps. I've already had one person e-mail me with a proposal to exchange hard drives via snail mail. The SBDs are out there and anyone wishing to can find them. Truly, there are more important issues in this world to worry about.

Again, I make the simple request: NO FLAMES, PLEASE. Respectful discourse appreciated as is similar off-list mail.

While I'm at it, I would be up for trading SBDs the updated old-fashioned way. I've got about 65 gigs coming to me shortly, with more likely after that, once I get them consolidated and sorted from the programmers at the radio station.


Peace, Love, and Respectful Diversity Of Opinion
-WoodWarbler
warbler@gmavt.net

This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-02 09:57:58

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?



Ahh, a welcome voice of reason. I have similar feelings regarding both the "ownwership" of the music itself and the motives behind the Dead as a business wanting to "exploit" (no negative conotation implied) said music as a commodity. Let's face it, these guys are getting on, and are faced with the same personal and familial obligations that many of us have...not to mention obligations to the persons they employ. I would think the majority of us have little inkling of how much cashflow is necessary to keep a company moving, let alone run one in the black. Our notions of the hippie ideal cannot erase certain facts of life. Are the band members doing well? Yes, but not Hilton or Trump well (those are the type of folks that should be the focus of this misguided angst)...and the boys earned it. More power to them; I wish them all the best. And I'll buy the live music they produce....that is for sure.

To the naysayers....let me ask you: Does the wellfare of your loved ones concern you? How are you preparing for the future well being of your family, or their family once you are gone.

On a side note, I'm damn glad I can plug into any SBD I want, and let it fly...Thanks Archive(once again)!

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Please cite to the statutes or case law that backs up your statements. You put it out there like it is a fact- So I challenge you to provide sound legal reasoning that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the band owns the audience tapes- that goes for the soundboards, too.

"Live Musical Performances" are not currently copyrightable- that is just the facts. Read the Martignon case from the Southern District of NY 2004. Go ahead and google it. Sound recordings in the studio are copyrightable- live musical performances are not

So please do not make statements of "fact" or worse, statements purporting to be legal positions that are patently false.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 10:28pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

Or, *don't* cite case law here. There are probably other legal cracker barrel forums to which you guys can go and hash stuff out. Some kind of Moot Court website out there? But here, as we can see from
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49814
the chosen resolution is understanding, gentlemanly compromise, patience, and respect. Not legal briefs.

In the old "about forum posting" thread, I said that people should confine their discussion of bands as it relates to the Archive. If people want to talk about "best grilled cheese in the parking lot", even though it might have been a Dead show parking lot, it is better to go to another forum somewhere else to do that. At this time, "best legal strategy" is another topic that has drifted a bit too far for here.

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 3, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

Diane

I am perfectly comfortable with the current resolution, as Ihave stated previously. And I had refrained from legal issues for only as long as I could, until some posters started to say things that were just not true. That is what bothers me- I cannot let those kind of statements go by without comment.

So long as others want to refrain from discussin copyright law, I will be glad to sit here and "Just listen to the music play.."

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 4, 2005 10:36pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose legal opinions?

OK Liam, so if you could just help me nag folks into not wasting their legal breath here (trained or untrained), that would be great, thanks!

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50062

Update: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-05 06:36:26

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Poster: Flakey Foont Date: Dec 3, 2005 5:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

One thing fo sure is; i'ts getting real deep if lawyers have to beat this dead horse. I suggest putting on a GD tune and relaxing a bit

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

"Does the wellfare of your loved ones concern you? How are you preparing for the future well being of your family, or their family once you are gone."

Great question!

I'm starting by going around and taking back every gift I ever gave to anyone, unless they are willing to pay me for it now.

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?



well...i'm sorry to hear that.

by your remark i see you missed the point of the perspective i was trying to provide. btw, your reasoning is a non sequitur...you have the choice to pay for certain recordings, or simply listen to any recording you desire, at any time, by logging on. your argument that a "gift" has been offered, and that offer rescinded in favor of a request for monetary exchange just does not stand up.

and you sound spoiled...

that's ok. i did not post up to enter into a debate, but simply to throw out my $.02. you are entitled to your opinion...as they say, opinions are like toothbrushes, everybody has one, but f$%* all if i'm gonna use yours.

i just wanted to offer a little positivity in the midst of so much petulant kicking and screaming..."mine, mine!"

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

" your argument that a "gift" has been offered, and that offer rescinded in favor of a request for monetary exchange just does not stand up."

Um, no.

My argument does stand up because, unlike you, you will see from my numerous posts to this forum that I am actually MAKING an argument instead of spouting platitudes, making strange emotional appeals re the welfare of Mickey Hart's pet llamas, and making conclusory wholly unsupported statements about the Dead's absolute rights to every note that ever went through their soundboard during every show for the past 40 years.

I hope you understand but I will repeat it for you just in case: my argument does stand up.

The Dead, in fact, DID give its fans the right to freely distribute a great deal of soundboard recordings -- not all of them but a great many of them -- and the Dead are now rescinding that right (or attempting to).

Are the Dead asking for money before they will allow anyone to download a soundboard recording of a live performance?

Gee, you tell me why the Dead are going through this maneuver.

Again: my argument stands up.

Yours doesn't.

Feel free to try again, though. It's a public bulletin board (at least for the time being).

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Poster: theotherone05 Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

It's plain and simple then, Don't listen anymore!

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 6:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

[defiant flamebait snipped. Please cool it here, thanks Chris. If you provide a contact point as suggested in another message, people can "take it to email" with you. -mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 14:02:16

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?


My apologies, Diana!

Of course, my memory is so short that I have no idea what I wrote exactly. ;)

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Poster: dac-n-dead Date: Dec 2, 2005 7:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Hey guys,
Just read the entire thread, very entertaining from a
reality TV perspective. Lots of great POV's(great job Chris
U. and others).Finding LMA was amazing, reliving that great music from thirty years ago has been a blast.It just
dawned on me the timing of all this(biggest shopping/gift giving time of the year) coincidence... Anyways , sure hope we can restore everything the way it was...
happy listening, Dave

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Poster: Jerryness Is Good Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

The DEAD aren't even taking the music back. Phil has made it clear that he had nothing to do with it...[moderated; please cool ad hominems now]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 17:16:18

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?


...i know that i didn't ever mention a lama. not once. mean spirited beasts, those...

streaming soundboards rules. if we want to own them, well its back to working for it, as the originator of this thread indicated. oh, well, nothing wrong with that--the music is worth it.

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Poster: SBDless Date: Dec 2, 2005 9:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Streaming soundboards suck...buffering....
Chris U. - kudos - this guy makes salient points and could lead a class action to reclaim what is in the public domain...
have you guys been to dead.net and noticed that it's completely redesigned, much more flashy & marketable???
COINCIDENCE????? I think not... GDM probably (erroneously) thought they could get the attention of the largest gathering of fans online by interrupting the status quo here at the Archive...what an idiot marketing ploy...if it wasn't purposeful & timed with the website launch, then how much more stupid does that make it? Can they really be so blind as to not anticipate this uproar?...

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Poster: pnc Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

buffering is not an issue for me...plently of bandwith here I guess.

and relative to not being able to stream the music, streaming rules. to be able to log on and have the brilliant (or not so brilliant) performances of the dead effortlessly stream through my homes sound system, is sweet!

class action lawsuit? you people need to get a life!

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:27pm
Forum: etree Subject: Buffering

The issue of buffering is not the band's deal, it's the Archive's. I e-maile IA about it and all it will take is an increase in bandwidth, just like any other streaming radio station.

-WW

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Dec 4, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Buffering

It may means YOU need more bandwidth.

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 4, 2005 11:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Buffering

Hi Brad, I've been trying to figure this conundrum out for some time. From when I found archive.org last summer until approximately this spring, I had no trouble streaming everything without buffering breaks. I have a DSL connection. At some point in late spring, it became impossible to stream without buffering issues during the day from Monday through Friday. Late nights and weekends, however, I could stream without buffering interruptions. Moreover, I am able to stream nugs.net and virtually all other streaming media. IA streams open automatically in iTunes on my Mac as do many others. It is the only site I've had such troubles with and only recently. WHen I e-mailed with my query, the answer was "we've got so many people downloading and streaming all at once now that we need to expand our bandwidth." Apparently, the good Grateful news caught on and the number of visitors to IA spiked this past summer, thus creating the buffering problem. I've always been wicked picky about my Dead shows and always, always like to hear them before committing them to space in my library. I've never had a huge collection as a result, which is fine....I like the best and most interesting shows out there. Same goes with IA shows. I'd often scan for interesting, rare, or weirdly played tunes.

ANyhoo...do you think it could be my local internet service provider?

-Brian

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Poster: Hatta Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Whose Soundboards?

Technically, the aud tapes are still copyrighted by the band. Legally they're no different from a soundboard.

Unless the tape was stolen, the "we made these tapes!" argument is just as valid for soundboards as it is auds. Legally, completely invalid. But if you care about what's fair, it's a very convincing point.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 4:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: NEW DEVELOPMENT


I just heard a rumor that the band is going to let us download soundboards again but on a restrictive basis.

Specifically, every Donna scream from every version of "Playing in the Band" and "Greatest Story Ever Told" circa 1972-74 will be available starting December 6th.

I know this seems almost too good to be true, but everyone else will surely agree it is a step in the right direction.

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Poster: bangtailpoet Date: Dec 1, 2005 4:58pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: NEW DEVELOPMENT

Speaking of new developments...has anyone checked out the official GD site recently (deadDOTnet)? It's like a whole new site...what's up with this...?

Maybe I missed an announcement or something...

It looks like there are links to shows from the vault...or at least setlists

This post was modified by bangtailpoet on 2005-12-02 00:34:10

This post was modified by bangtailpoet on 2005-12-02 00:58:46

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: NEW DEVELOPMENT


Any day now we'll get the announcement that they've teamed up with Apple to provide a "special" way for fans to access "selected treasures" from "the vault" for a "nominal fee."



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Poster: osborne fitzgerald mcclintic Date: Dec 11, 2005 8:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

thank you for the wonderfull downloads.. My reel to reel loves you

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Poster: StrawRider Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thanks for the update, brewster.
At least the soundboards won't be hidden any longer. There's still much going on with the bandmates and related parties so things may evolve further, who knows.

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Poster: brendanmcauley Date: Dec 20, 2005 7:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

'Thanks for everything on this site in the past few years' is what I want to say. Right on to all of you who took the time to put YOUR SBD's on this site. It's a lot of work to convert cassettes to digital medium and it says so much about the community that people came out of the woodwork to share and experience great tunes by wonderful heartloving musicians.

They are the dead's SBD's, though, even if we have them, too. As has been mentioned, no one ever authorized patching into the SBD at shows. Only audience taping.

MY SOLUTION to all of this is as follows;

Make this site or something similar to it, "Dead Affiliated" and start letting the community self propel the musical experience and allow shows to be freely downloaded by offering a membership to the site. YES AT A FEE. This is very fair. We become/remain part of a club and get great music and share it amongst eachother, reconnecting with old memories.

Hell, Phil and Bob are basically in there 60's, aint none of us getting out of here alive; so let's make the music available NOW.

Besides, the more who get turned on help assure us all of a more balanced and reasonable and progressive thinking person. We, politically, need this music out there. We need to help others open their minds and ears to what power dance and music can bring to one's happiness. The greatful dead is the last of the available great American Experiences.

Yes, this site helped do all of this. Yes, a fee is fair. Yes the Dead will make more cash this way. The downloads are nice to buy on teh dead's site, but if you don't like the setlist or already have it you don't buy it-even if its just oen song!

Deadheads want dead music. Give it to us. Let us pay for it. 1 million heads will pay 100 bucks each for a life time membership ( 25% goes to REX) and there you have it. 100 million bucks,
I will head up the marketing...this safeguards fans adn the band and all of its mouths to feed.

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Poster: Tryagain Date: Dec 18, 2005 3:52pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I want to see SBDs restored as before
I brought all official CDs, Dicks Picks etc
I am deeply upset what has happened

Adrian

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Poster: gr8fulpair Date: Dec 18, 2005 11:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

There's plenty of music in this world for everybody to have some............so, on the count of three, everyone shut the hell up and be happy! One, two, three.....aahh...that's nice.

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Poster: Tryagain Date: Dec 19, 2005 5:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thanks for kind words
That's it for archives for me

Get a real life

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 19, 2005 5:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Here are a couple more politely-worded posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: nickteller25 Date: Dec 19, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: FTP transfer question...

Quick FTP downloading question.

I'm able to find the show I want in the "Parent" folder.

I don't need to download the entire "Parent" folder for each show, right?

I'm not sure which file to download once at the "Parent" folder of the show I want to download. I think one or two of those files in the "Parent" folder would do the job, but I'm not sure which one/ones. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Nick

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 19, 2005 7:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FTP transfer question...

Can you give an example of a url for an item you are stuck on? That will help illustrate. Thanks!

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Poster: mrknowitall23 Date: Jan 3, 2006 1:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Remember people there are ways to save a streaming file onto your computer. I came to the conclusion a while ago that you can find out how to do anything with computers that you could ever want to somewhere on the internet. Just do a little looking around. The Truth Is Out There.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Jan 3, 2006 5:14pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Amen. Windows media player will do the trick. Just use Nero 5.5 or 6, to burn the tracks, with no 2 second gaps between the songs. This also works at www.deadshow.org

This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2006-01-04 01:13:38

This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2006-01-04 01:14:09

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Poster: Papa deadtender Date: Jan 5, 2006 3:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Is there a way you could explain to me how this works?? Are you saying I could download a stream and then burn it to CD using Nero? Thanks and peace.

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Poster: Renliff33 Date: Jan 5, 2006 4:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Wow Diana, did yiou know that dead.net has linked to this forum? That's how I got here. We need to contact them if you really want this thread dead. And I'm still bummed about this. Long live Bittorrent!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 5, 2006 8:52pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

Probably they'd like folks to read this summary, created since this sprawling thread:
http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php#215

If you want to tell them to update the link you found, thanks a bunch for doing that!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-01-06 04:52:35

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Poster: guygee Date: Jan 9, 2006 10:59pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

On January 03, 2006 09:00:33pm, mrknowitall23 wrote Date:
"Remember people there are ways to save a streaming file onto your computer. I came to the conclusion a while ago that you can find out how to do anything with computers that you could ever want to somewhere on the internet. Just do a little looking around. The Truth Is Out There."

Right, check out Total Recorder. Inexpensive shareware that can record any audio stream (for Windows only) But what will we get? A bunch of lossy soundboards circulating. Not Good!

I want to thank the folks on this site for continuing to host the lossless AUDs, but I will be paying a lot more attention to GD bittorrents in the future.

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Poster: jerry's son Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

This is fair i guess. But what i collect is soundboards on my HD to play on My Main stereo. The boycott is over for me though I think.
I'll try to get some trading going on snail mail I think though.
Mayby I Can Get My Media Player on My Hi-fi To play streams from archive. Peace

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Poster: notfried Date: Mar 9, 2006 10:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

There is also a fun little program called hidownload
that can grab any streaming audio or video and save it to your hard drive. You may wish to convert the format from that point....

http://www.hidownload.com/products/9/61/9-61-2.htm
trial version is good for 30 days..

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Mar 9, 2006 10:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Fifty buck? Not me, when you can stream and then download those files with your Windows media player...

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Poster: nagdot Date: Mar 9, 2006 10:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

hey all you should keep this on the down low bobby may want your 1st and 4th born children to stream these shows next haha so he can send them kids to college too 100$ ratdog tix cant be far behind lmao

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:46pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Not as a plug, but slimbox sells a set-top-box called the squeezebox that plays shows right out of the LMA onto your home stereo. It is quite slick-- it has a remote control and you can select what show you want to hear.

Anyway, I have one and it works well. A friend, Dan Aronson, did the bridging code because their thing was open source, and then the company bundled it into their next release.

-brewster

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Poster: wineland Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Could you tell me more about the Squeezbox by Slim Devices. Do you have to have the content on your stereo or does the Squeezebox access the Archive and you can browse the Archive through the Squeezebox then stream the show you decide upon? Or do you browse on your pc and then play it through the Squeezebox to your stereo? I can call if that would be easier. Email me at brian_wineland AT mentor DOT com

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Poster: aikani Date: Dec 6, 2005 12:44pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

this really is a fair compromise, I've read some people really flaming about this, but, if you think about it, the soundboard recordings were not truly "authorized" by the band, they came about as "favors", the only thing the band ever actually granted licenses for was audience recordings, and the really good audience recordings in some ways are better than the soundboards, since you get the audience chants on things like gdtrfb, etc.

Peace.

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Poster: John H Date: Dec 5, 2005 5:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Why can't we download the FM broadcast shows? These are CLEARLY not from the "Dead's Vaults".

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 5, 2005 5:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php#215
and link(s) therein

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Poster: sevenbelow95 Date: Dec 10, 2005 4:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Why not just say "This aint no SB, just a super crisp aud." ya'll know?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 10, 2005 10:32pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: curation

Not exactly sure what you are referring to, but this might help clarify:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49647

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Poster: sevenbelow95 Date: Dec 10, 2005 5:13pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

oh yeah, and dont forget the internet isnt a real place. just a bunch of plastic, dont take it all so for real prankster.

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Poster: Cpt.Trips Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

THIS IS AMAZING NEWS!!!! ALLTHOUGH SOUNDBOARDS ARENT UP FOR DOWNLOAD AT LEAST AUDIENCE TAPES ARE!!! ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING AND THIS IS CERTINLY BETTER THAN THE SITUATION LAST WEEK!!! BUT COULD BOB HAVE HAD HAND IN THIS?

"John Perry Barlow, one of the band's lyricists, said he had had a "pretty heated discussion" on Tuesday with Bob Weir, the Dead guitarist and singer, over the extent of the restrictions. "

THANK YOU BARLOW AND PHIL!!!!!!!!

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Poster: Doclnghair Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thank you all at Archive for what you do.
The compromise will keep the music flowing.
As to comments about "authorized" SNDBD's.
Giving someone [...]favors in
exchange for a plug in was NEVER approved of by the band, and is one of several reasons personel changed at the
mixing board in the GD's last few years. For the band members thoughts on "Makes it all free" I reccomend looking
at Festival Express. Bob and Jer both discuss the issue of an artist at least getting fair recompense for their work as far back as 1970. Live in the real world folks. GDP has generally, with a few exceptions, tried to be fair with us.
Let's be fair with them

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 06:37:29

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:54am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

"Bob and Jer both discuss the issue of an artist at least getting fair recompense for their work as far back as 1970. Live in the real world folks."

Holy bejeezus!

I am living in the real world and the last time I checked the real world included the band charging a fair amount of money for tickets to go see them sludge through their hits at half speed.

The Grateful Dead have been compensated for their performance at Hofheinz in 1972. It was that soundboard which caused me to hope for the impossible and go see them at Alpine Valley in 1986 when they played one of the lamest shows ever.

I don't recall getting my money back.

And I don't recall anyone saying "Here's a soundboard tape but don't give it to anyone to copy -- the band doesn't permit that."

In fact, I recall the opposite. Maybe I was "high".

What do you think????

The way some people around here talk ... It's as if slavery were reinstated, you'd have the same folks saying, "Hey, people, stop being selfish, you should be glad you got to vote all those years. It could be worse, you know."

Pathetic.

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Poster: bee Date: Dec 3, 2005 7:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Chris wrote:
The Grateful Dead have been compensated for their performance at Hofheinz in 1972. It was that soundboard which caused me to hope for the impossible and go see them at Alpine Valley in 1986 when they played one of the lamest shows ever.

Josh writes:
Nice try, x-man, but Minneapolis was worse, and, as I recall, you missed all of 1994/1995. Those were some seriously sorry-ass shows. (Good to have you back.)

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 5, 2005 6:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive


Heh, thanks for keeping me honest, Josh. ;)

I can't say I'm glad to be back under these exceedingly strange circumstances but so it goes.

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Poster: soundtribe Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

[moderated] Bwaaaaahaaaa the band gave these tapes away bwahaaaa. I know Alan Mand rolled reels of fillmore east stuff - without bear's knowledge or permission of course. Thanx for the AUD's, More early AUD's will pop up now that we seem to have a small shield up, i'm sure charlie will pull some new remastered aud's out... if you can get the reviews of the old shows that you pulled back up like others have asked, that would be cherry. try to stream at 192 like the other guy said or beg beg 256 beg beg beg. Oh and thanx for saving me from giving Marcus Buick a case of Metal tapes and having a few missing when they came back. Kissing taper... back in the day was worse than hell. you guys at archive... rock.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 06:34:45

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Poster: Cpt.Trips Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

im all about bein fair to them....by all means.....but its not like they are poor....the sound board downloads prabably didnt affect them at all....but hey phil shared his thoughts and he was for the archive.....what it boils down to is im glad we have something as aposed to nothing....PHIL IN ALBANY ON SUNDAY....O YEA!!!

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Poster: JackStraw87 Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Absolutely agree with Cpt. Trips! I can remember when the only way to get a tape was via snail mail from a taper group that you joined. Now there are tons of web sites with great Dead concerts on them! Sigh...I must be getting old - I still like to get a tape / CD from another trader with all of their original art drawn all over it...I don't think people know how fast they have it now! Relax - all good recordings come in time! This is another great source for all of us.

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Poster: glennw Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

To me, the gaping hole right now is that, unless I missed it, there is no definitive clarifying statement by the band, or GDM, as to what the current noncommercial distribution rules are for Grateful Dead recordings as of today. It begs the question: do they understand all of the consequences of their actions? Sounds like Barlow tried to explain it to them and was villified. They may not owe us soundboards, but they do owe us an explanation and an affirmative declaration of policy, not a policy by default.

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Poster: GerryM Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

You people make me laugh. Are you for real? Have any of you people ever considered what the band members went through to consistently put forth this music which we all love, cherish, and enjoy so much? The travelling, the infrastructure necessary to support the entourage which creates a live performance, not to mention the practice and rehearsing required to hone and extract the talents with which these musicians were blessed. And thase musicians aren's entitled to be paid for their efforts through the years? It's commendable that they even make all their soundboards available to us fans as many other bands don't even make such an effort for fear that it would cannobolize the sales of the one studio album they put out once every five years and milk for all it's worth. Before any of you posts your next whining, or worse yet, scathing criticism, let's see you work a 40 hour week and not come looking for your paycheck!

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

"You people make me laugh. Are you for real? Have any of you people ever considered what the band members went through to consistently put forth this music which we all love, cherish, and enjoy so much? The travelling, the infrastructure necessary to support the entourage which creates a live performance, not to mention the practice and rehearsing required to hone and extract the talents with which these musicians were blessed. And thase musicians aren's entitled to be paid for their efforts through the years? It's commendable that they even make all their soundboards available to us fans as many other bands don't even make such an effort for fear that it would cannobolize the sales of the one studio album they put out once every five years and milk for all it's worth. Before any of you posts your next whining, or worse yet, scathing criticism, let's see you work a 40 hour week and not come looking for your paycheck!"

You make me laugh, then cry, because it is sad to think that people out there think the GD have not been generously compensated many times over. They were one of the highest grossing rock bands on the road for many years, and even when they were overshadowed by large tours by the Stones or U2, they still made hundreds of millions of $$, and all that infrastructure and payroll was paid at the time. Ever hear of unions? You can be sure everyone who worked for the organization got paid well. They are not entitled to royalties for work done 20 years ago. Furthermore, if they mismanaged those millions and squandered it on drugs (and we all know very well that Bobby and Jerry have had their problems), or spent it all on too many Mercedes, or ran up legal bills keeping themselves out of jail after they got busted for said drug problems, that doesn't give them the right to rewrite history and try to take back OUR SBDs. Hell, not a day goes by that i don't regret my life choices and wish i could go back and do it different and be in a better financial position than I am today, but it ain't gonna happen for me, and you shouldn't cut them any slack either. One thing has nothing to do with the other. So stop crying for them and their expensive infrastructure and their overhead. They had a very profitable business, and now they are just being greedy or lazy. As others have said, write a good tune, get out and play it. If I sound harsh, it's a reaction to their harsh tactics.
Aiko

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Poster: Brew Guru Date: Dec 6, 2005 1:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I hope that the archive and the Grateful Dead continue to discuss and refine this change in policy. I think the compromise announced here doesn't go far enough.

There really is no difference between downloading soundboard recordings from this site and trading soundboards with Heads. Except for one -- aging Heads like me who no longer have trader connections are shut out completely from board recordings as we move to this 21st Century technology.

What really hurts is I just discovered the archive and purchased software to help me download efficiently -- just in time for this policy to take effect.

I own about two dozen of the Dick's Picks and also buy them as gifts for friends. I also own most of the Vault releases and the other concert releases the Dead does semiannually. I've also done one of the concerts from the new Dead download series. I would continue to buy those that interest me as they are put on the market, even with soundboards available on this archive.

I want to financially support a band that gave me 17 years of memories at concerts I attended. I'm sure most of your members feel the same way.

I hope the soundboards will be brought back for downloads. Let's face it, the Dead will only issue a limited number, but some of us may have an interest in the other shows (For example, I downloaded the 2-11-70 Fillmore East before the policy change; there's little chance it would be released since they've already done a Dick's Picks with other shows from this run).

I'm glad the audience recordings are back and plan to check them out. But please revisit the soundboard policy with the band.

Perhaps the archive could include all the boards except ones the band plans to release in the next five years.

Thanks for a great archive and a wonderful opportunity to enjoy incredible live music,

Brew Guru

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Poster: East Coast Date: Dec 6, 2005 8:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

The point is this, the archive always pulled shows when they were officially released from the Dead and that angered many people. Some deadheads are just as greedy with the music. I remember reading comments about shows where there was mega complaining and shows being pulled...now all the soundboards are pulled. I am sure they are screaming even louder. The problem I have is that there are 100's of shows that will never make an official release...for whatever reason (sound quality, incomplete show, etc.) Those little tidbits of history are now gone unless we were fortunate to download these when we had the chance.

I am still perplexed as to how they determine what a SBD is and what an AUD is. 9-15-82 sure sounds like an AUD to me.

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Poster: Chris Barry Date: Dec 7, 2005 12:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I love Tom Waits too!

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 7, 2005 12:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hey, I'll add my name to that list as well. I know Tom Waits doesn't play live much, but has there been any effort to get his shows on the archive?

Nighthawks at the Diner is one of the greatest live performances of all time.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 7, 2005 1:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

has there been any effort to get his shows on the archive?

Not as far as I know yet, though that would be cool. I don't personally know if he's trade-friendly though?

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 7, 2005 6:28pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

My guess would be no, just b/c he doesn't play live alot and would probably want to issue official releases like "Nighthawks" and "Big Time" ( i think that was the title of the one he released in the 90's)when he does...there was also that stupid incident he had to deal with when Frito Lay asked him to sing on an ad for them; when he said "no" they got a "sound-alike" to do a Tom Waits-like growl for their chips and he sued (and won!)...so he might be a bit gun shy about issues regarding availability of his songs or even his voice.

Sure would be great to see him on the archive, though!

BTW, I'm very pleased that another of my favorite bands, The Cowboy Junkies--a pretty big commercial success relative to many of the "bar bands"--and no offense meant!--that appear here, seem perfectly at ease w/having their shows available.

I figured if a band that well-known is cool with it, maybe Tom would be, too?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 7, 2005 8:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Cowboy Junkies

CJ were one of the earlier additions to the site and it's funny, wherever news of the LMA leaked into the press, I noticed it always seemed to be like, "They even have the Cowboy Junkies!" :)

Cowboy hats off to the band for their generosity!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-08 04:37:14

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Poster: jhender501 Date: Dec 7, 2005 10:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Cowboy Junkies


I can never hear enough Cowboy Junkies.


Jim

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 7, 2005 9:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Cowboy Junkies

Amen to that!

One gets the feeling Margo and her boys are just cool folks in that laid-back, Canadian way we could probably all benefit from here in the states.

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Poster: jesterfeld Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Still not sure how I feel about this one. Basiclly they have removed their most valuble means of recruiting a fanbase. Apparently this decision indicates they're done recruiting new fans & would rather 'milk' this community for as much money as is possible. What is their plan to sell off the entire vault? As is I have purchased more GDM/GDP oferings in recent years than when the band was around & I'm sure that they are more profitable than ever. Unfortunately the vault offerings are often incomplete or compilations of shows rather than the integral sbd's we've come to know & love from archive. Decisions such as this make me question my desire to continue to contribute my hard earned wages to this music 'enterprise' any longer, Definitely won't be going to any Rat-dog shows until I see a comment from Bobby. Perhaps the band needs to talk with John Perry Barlow about the virtues of free information once again. I agree with Phil & hope that his influence prevails over the other band members. In the meantime will they be charging Dark Star Orchestra a licensing fee?

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Poster: guygee Date: Jan 9, 2006 10:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Wow, what a shock! Although I have many of my favorite SBD shows already, I neglected downloading some classics, and now my oportunity is gone. A longstanding promise to the fans is broken, and my enjoyment is diminished. The "Corporate Dead" are no longer grateful to their fans.

Yes, I've purchased most of what is commercially offered, even if I previously had the SBD, but now most of these great shows are simply unavailable in lossless form. Most of the SBDs will never be released as full shows, due to pure economics because the market just isn't that large. Future generations have been robbed of an important part of our culture and heritage. I just feel so disappointed right now, like I'm falling into some dark abyss.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 10, 2006 12:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Let's not kick up the same old discussion, it's been hashed to death here in many past threads and thousands of posts, as you can see from just this one example thread. Thanks- mod.

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Poster: MushroomEagle Date: Jan 16, 2006 3:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

i know we shouldn't be hashing it to death on this page - and i've read several posts of yours thats said that very same thing - but if you can give the millions of dead fans a precise location to voice our outrage and disgust that would be much obliged
P.S. (esp if it happened to make its way to the band)
So to all who are angry - hell LETS PETITION

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:18pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on- pointer to better forum

a precise location

The ideal place would be the band's own site of course! They have a forum, deadnetcentral.com.

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Poster: sxwxru420247 Date: Dec 6, 2005 7:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

is this for real???

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Poster: Phukit Date: Dec 7, 2005 10:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

fyi there are programs that capture streaming audio, however it has probably already been bastardized into lossy format.

back to snail trading, at least we can swing by here to get or Phil Lesh & Friends.......SBD's no less..........

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Poster: BensDad Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:54pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

"We at archive.org now realize that our mistaken attempts to move quickly were based on what we thought the Grateful Dead wanted."

Mistaken attempts to move quickly to do what exactly?

I am glad for the compromise, overly thankful and very grateful but between the GD and The LMA you guys are too vague..Spit it out in a way that it makes sense to everyone please...Move quickly from the beginning? Move quickly to keep it on here? What are you talking about please? Some of us just want the facts, Man....seriously though..This is grate news for all parties involved imo.

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Poster: DedHedDanK Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I don't understand why the people that made this decision have done so. Even if I had a SBD and the band released the same show I would always buy a copy. For some reason official releases we of prestine quality. Who didn't have a SBD of the '75 show that became 1 from the Vault. Also the band never had a problem releasing music that just did not seem to be out there. There are many shows that they have in their vault that do not circulate as SBD's. Where are all the remaining Europe 72 shows?

There is no shortage of money the band can make without denying us the music we have always had.

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Poster: estimatedeyes77 Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

A move in the right direction.
Now lets get the SBDS back for download.
Perhaps even if on a rotation.

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Poster: BornCrossEyed42 Date: Dec 3, 2005 1:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

thank you, so much. restoring the sbd's for streaming makes me very relieved, and very happy. if all of that music was completely lost, and out of reach from everyone.. i dont even know. it needs to be out there, for everyone to hear. if it wasn't.. just think of everything there, that would be lost. well anyways, thank you archive. and I am sorry Diana, for being a jerk when you modified my ridiculous posts.

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

Brothers and Sisters, Deadheads of all ages and persuasions, please do see these developments for what they are. The whole idea of a band sharing it’s entire live recorded history was unprecedented until the Grateful Dead began allowing their fans to openly record and trade shows. Times have changed and few thought of the type of information sharing that we’ve now grown accustomed to. When I first found the Archive, it truly was a DeadHead’s ultimate dream—let’s face it! To go back and listen to shows I was at, listen to the Acid Tests and everything in between, every version of all the rare stuff. Hooray! I was angry at first that I might not ever get those things downloaded or recorded or whatever. Tonight, I discussed this matter on the air of a local, community radio station during our “Terrapin Nation” show where a different Grateful Dead show is played, in its entirety, every week (WMRW-LP Warren, VT 95.1FM). Is is not better to build the Grateful Dead community be interacting with real, live people in order to trade those CDs around in lieu of the outdated tapes? Someone said that the taper and tape-trading community has deteriorated ethically and altogether. By being able to sit at your computer downloading all those shows you'd normally be developing relationships and friendships in order to get, there's no avoiding that. Moreover, if the Grateful Dead wish to take soundboards off the Archive for repackaging with liner notes, artwork and the like in order that Billy and Mickey can send their grandkids to a college of their choice (while providing health care) because they don’t make a lyricist’s or a composer’s extra royalty, that is their right.

Consider this alternative: No shows, period, except officially released live material. Bob Dylan, whom I love and also respect, takes this approach to his unofficial recorded material. Most rock, jazz and bluegrass bands are like this. Many of the other bands on the Archive disallow downloadable soundboards or soundboards altogether. The Grateful Dead soundboards are back and you can have ‘em all, it just takes a few extra long steps to turn a streaming show into CDs or fodder for the iPod. All you need to do to take them with you is beam your computer’s stream into your stereo system, dust off that old tape cassette recorder and get some blanks. Then beam it back to your computer and digitize those shows with Sound Studio or some such application. Takes too long? Perhaps you’ll only be able to hear those shows in your household, cleaning, or at the office with the high speed.

The Music Won’t Ever Stop, no matter how you slice it up and divvy up the remains. I think the compromise is admirable.

NO FLAMES PLEASE.

-Brian Aust the “WoodWarbler"
Waitsfield, VT
warbler@gmavt.net


This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-01 22:16:05

This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-01 22:21:07

This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-02 08:33:20

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 4:07pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

"Someone said that the taper and tape-trading community has deteriorated ethically and altogether. Well, by being able to sit at your computer downloading all those shows you'd normally be developing relationships and friendships in order to get, there's no avoiding that."

Developing relationships and friendships "in order to get" tapes.

Yeah, that's normal.

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

What is normal and why should normal be desirable? There's never been anything normal abou the Dead, their fans, or the scene. Tape trading and building of relationships including life-long friendships go together, normal or not.

-Brian

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Poster: davidbarfield Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

"By being able to sit at your computer downloading all those shows you'd normally be developing relationships and friendships in order to get, there's no avoiding that."

perhaps. but regardless of the social effects of internet association, i find it particularly irksome to be instructed as to how i'm to associate.

taking their staements seriously; break it down. they're concerned about the speed with which the trading is completed. what gauge should be used? no fed ex? only bt? or is that too fast? priority mail or longer only? how about i burn a show and drive it over? i hope there's traffic, lest i get there too fast....

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Poster: drew4utoo Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

Sorry but I think you are missing the point. The SBDs are now in the public domain. They have been circulating for years with the band's knowledge and approval. This is not a compromise for the fans, it's an ultimatum. I for one can live w/out buying GD music and merchandise and that is why I'm supporting the boycott and urging like minded fans to do the same. If we make use of our power as consumers and make a difference in GDM's profits then perhaps they will rethink this decision and allow people to enjoy the music that was available on the archive in its entirety without any new restrictions.

See a previous post for my letter to GDM and write one of your own to let them know how you feel.
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49786

This post was modified by drew4utoo on 2005-12-01 22:35:12

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Poster: SpaceTrout Date: Dec 15, 2005 4:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

I agree. Boycott them. This is an outrage.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 15, 2005 4:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Again, you are responding to a post over two weeks old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Fair Compromise...Time To Dust Off Those Rusty Tape Decks!

First, let me applaud Chris U. for expressing his points so well. I could not agree more. Also, Drew4utoo clearly expressed his very good points.

Now, we have this very frightening suggestion from Woodwarbler:

"The Grateful Dead soundboards are back and you can have ‘em all, it just takes a few extra long steps to turn a streaming show into CDs or fodder for the iPod. All you need to do to take them with you is beam your computer’s stream into your stereo system, dust off that old tape cassette recorder and get some blanks. Then beam it back to your computer and digitize those shows with Sound Studio or some such application. Takes too long? Well, then maybe you’ll only be able to hear those shows in your household, cleaning, or at the office with the high speed."

[What] are you thinking? I am incredulous. Why settle for adding serious loss of fidelity to OUR SBDs instead of standing up for our rights?

You would probably follow this hairbrained advice even if the boards were up, if it were more convenient for you.

People, PLEASE do not diminish the quality of our archive by resorting to shortcuts or hairbrained conversions, and
DO NOT BE DUPED INTO SETTLING FOR MP3 STREAMS TO REPLACE OUR LOSSLESS SBDS. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. I have been attacked for being elitist, and for telling people what to do with their recordings. If you want to take a Polaroid of the Mona Lisa and hang it on your wall, I guess you might find that satisfying, but we do not want the real painting removed and replaced with your Polaroid, or covered with a layer of soot.

Thank you.
Aiko


This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 09:53:06

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Poster: WoodWarbler Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:38am
Forum: etree Subject: NO FLAMES PLEASE

NO FLAMES PLEASE

Perhaps you missed that part of my post? I respect your opinions. You do not need to deride and swear at mine.

The WoodWarbler

This post was modified by WoodWarbler on 2005-12-02 09:38:35

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Trading advice

Calm yourselves, folks, thanks! Do not fear streams, as some advice for traders is here:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49677

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: The "compromise" is bogus

"if the Grateful Dead wish to take soundboards off the Archive for repackaging with liner notes, artwork and the like in order that Billy and Mickey can send their grandkids to a college of their choice (while providing health care) because they don’t make a lyricist’s or a composer’s extra royalty, that is their right"

So says Moses riding his quasar!!!!

Actually, whether Billy and Mickey have that right is the fundamental question here.

If they truly do have that right, then it doesn't matter what they want to do with the music. They can do whatever they want with it. They can sit it on it like Jack Nicholson sat on The Passenger.

On the other hand, if they don't have the right and they want to send someone to college, all Billy and Mickey have to do is charge some Deadheads living in the Hamptons $100,000 to play Rhythm Devils for a couple hours at their kid's bat mitzvah.

Seriously, the idea that the band members *need* to squelch soundboard distribution in order to live comfortably is revoltingly naive.

Can we agree to drop this vapid emotional appeal, please?

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Poster: Clarence_fan Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: The 'compromise' is bogus

"Seriously, the idea that the band members *need* to squelch soundboard distribution in order to live comfortably is revoltingly naive."

I have to agree. I think the band members responsible for this are acting more naively than consumers who defend this "compromise"--beyond ethical or legal arguments, this is just bad business. Downloading new shows is what gets me most excited about the Grateful Dead, and that excitement translates into buying official releases. I've never refrained from buying an official release based on having a soundboard recording of the show. Everyone knows the official releases are lightyears ahead of unofficial recordings in terms of sound quality.

Also, the streaming option doesn't work for me -- I only have highspeed net access at work, and I don't listen to music at work.

I really believe those responsible for this have made a mistake that will negatively impact their bottom line. It's a shame; hopefully they'll restore download access and keep the excitement going.

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: The 'compromise' is bogus

I agree with everything Chris U. says.

People, listen to this man; even when he's joking, he is making very valid points:

"On the other hand, if they don't have the right and they want to send someone to college, all Billy and Mickey have to do is charge some Deadheads living in the Hamptons $100,000 to play Rhythm Devils for a couple hours at their kid's bat mitzvah."

Chris' wisdom is spread throughout this thread, worth searching for.

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Poster: tcappellett Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thank you brewster for your efforts in restoring the sbd's. I am grateful the compromise was made and thankful for your work. You can’t make please everyone all of the time, but for me to able to listen to my first show (7/7/89) to my last show (95 Pittsburgh rain show) and every one in between was like finding the Holy Grail. Not to mention the ability to stream sbd's of EVERY Binghamton show - shows that were literally in my backyard... well that’s just a bonus. Restoring it made me all the more grateful for the IA.

Now the other side of the parking lot would argue that once the genie is out of the bottle, it is hard to put him back in … but, as much as some would like to think things should be for free, the GD runs as a business. Perhaps McNally should look at it from a different perspective. The IA allows access to a much larger audience now that the band does not tour (pains me to say that). This is a conduit for people that don't know what we all do - the GD is like no other band. If enough people still are upset about not being able to dl the sbd’s, do a better job marketing your product. Selectively choose the top shows rated by Deadbase, market them with merchandise (like the Harpur College shirt/CD which I bought) and make those specific shows unavailable for dl.

In either event, I am truly thankful. Thanks

ps. on the old chance McNally reads this .. you should hire Charlie Miller and release his work .. now that is something I would buy!

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Poster: glenn Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:48am
Forum: etree Subject: keeping the music ALIVE: the real situation in the real world

the soundboards that didn't come from the Dead's vault have always been in our hands and will always be in our hands... nothing can ever take that away. I will continue to trade the soundboards I have, even the ones the Grateful Dead have published...

all except the music that both
'came from the vault'
AND
'have been released by the dead for sale'

same as it ever was.

If the Dead or anyone else wants to do anything about it, my email address is drglenn@dr.com and my real world address is
glenn
17172 rinaldi street granada hills california 91344-3523

I understand that the dead own the music, but they don't own all the recordings. I won't be trading anything if the dead have released it for sale,

my policy is meant to
both
preserve the music
(just hoarding it doesn't save it from bitrot, it has to be traded losslessly to keep it preserved: the music in the vaults is crumbling away in a sense, unless it is constantly re-archived, tapes crumble, discs deteriorate, nothing is forever... TRADING LOSSLESS DIGITAL COPIES FOR FREE INTO THE INFINITE REACHES OF TIME AND SPACE IS THE ONLY WAY I KNOW OF TO KEEP THIS INCREDIBLE MUSIC ALIVE
and to
encourage the band to publish the best quality versions of ALL the vault material (AND MY OPINION IS THAT IT SHOULD BE RELEASED -- FOR SALE -- AS AUDIO DISCS AND IN LOSSLESS FORMAT AS WELL)
(they can't make money on what they don't sell, so publish it boys!) We'll happily buy it all, even the stuff we already have, we just don't want it to disappear! It's not about the money, hell it would be cheaper to buy the music than to trade it for free, when you consider how many thousands of hours go into an active trader's passion for keeping the music alive.

If anyone from the dead, the police, or the free lossless trading community want to, they can contact me, arrest me, trade with me, sue me, murder me or whatever they deem appropriate.

I don't intend to let the music rot in my vault or theirs just because of some pictures printed in green and black.

I'm ready to give everything for anything I take. That IS my final answer.

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

7/7/89 your first show! That was a very good one indeed at JFK. Best Blow Away of all time and a magnificent Scarlet-Fire. I had to plug that S-F- not enough have listened to it

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Total B.S.

Well it looks like I'm in the minority here but I will toss in my two cents and say that there is ZERO difference between the Dead saying "You can't download soundboard recordings of live Dead shows onto your hard disk" and the Dead saying "You can't make a high quality cassette copy of a soundboard tape -- it must be three generations removed from the master."

Understand? There is NO difference.

If the Dead wants to sit on its soundboard master reels and protect them and archive them in the highest digital quality possible, then they should GO FOR IT! I have no objections to that. They SHOULD take such measures to protect their property, i.e., the master tapes which they own.

But the Dead never claimed ownership of the MUSIC from their live performances. On the contrary, the MUSIC from their live performances was expressly dedicated to the public. Soundboard recordings were given by the band to the public for decades and the previous incarnation of this archive was simply another embodiment of that process.

Any show that was downloaded by any user of this archive is in the public domain and in the public domain IT SHOULD REMAIN. Is the band going to stop someone from UPLOADING a PREVIOUSLY downloaded soundboard and allowing others to download? How could they do that? The downloading of soundboards from this archive was expressly permitted, was it not?????

You can not put this information into the public domain and then pull it back and expect to be able to enforce copyright on it.

Believe me, a lot of people would love to do that with movies by Orson Welles and Fritz Lang. It can't be done. All you can do is control YOUR VERSION of the material (e.g., if the Dead wanted to create a new mix of a previously donated-to-the-public soundboard, the Dead could control distribution of that particular mix).

Again: any previously downloaded shows are in the public domain. The Dead no longer owns the digital bytes that it allowed to be downloaded.

You CAN NOT retrieve dedicated material from the public domain, as a matter of law.

A final comment: let's face it, this is all a matter of greed after the fact and someone in the Dead organization trying to have its cake (the goodwill generated among fans by allowing the public dissemination of soundboard recordings) and eat it too (reverse course and try to control the distribution of live recordings already in the public domain).

Along with the totally duckheaded underpressing of that 10CD Fillmore set, this makes two totally axxhole moves by the Dead organization in less than 6 months.

What the hell is going on?

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Poster: darb2 Date: Dec 8, 2005 8:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

If in fact that a soundboard needs to be three generations .

Would a MP3 sufice?

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Poster: lip11 Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

I just want to say that I completely agree with the previous
post by Chris U. Thanks!

lip11

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

Execllent points by Chris U.:

"You can not put this information into the public domain and then pull it back and expect to be able to enforce copyright on it.

Believe me, a lot of people would love to do that with movies by Orson Welles and Fritz Lang. It can't be done. All you can do is control YOUR VERSION of the material (e.g., if the Dead wanted to create a new mix of a previously donated-to-the-public soundboard, the Dead could control distribution of that particular mix).

Again: any previously downloaded shows are in the public domain. The Dead no longer owns the digital bytes that it allowed to be downloaded.

You CAN NOT retrieve dedicated material from the public domain, as a matter of law."


I cannot believe how many people are being duped and expressing thanks for getting back half of what was taken from them to begin with. What are you people thinking?

As Frank Zappa said, "There's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over." If you want to worship these guys, whatever, but don't let them reem you. I loved the music, not the artists. I was only in it for the music; apparently, they were "Only In It For the Money," thanks again, Frank.

Aiko

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Poster: liranfa Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

Great stuff guys.

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Dec 4, 2005 12:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

"But the Dead never claimed ownership of the MUSIC from their live performances."

What people don't seem to understand here is that the Dead didn't have to claim ownership of ANYTHNG - the PERFORMANCE belonged to them the moment their fingers touched the ivories, fretboards, or skins. They OWN it. It's THEIR WORK. And it will continue to belong to them until they expressly relinquish their rights of ownership. In terms of their policy, they have never addressed the issue of ownership, therefore, it (THE PERFORMANCE) still belongs to them. What they HAVE expressly addressed in policy is the issue of reproduction and resale of THEIR PROPERTY, and the conditions under which it is authorized. The only thing that YOU own is the blank tape or CD that their property is recorded on.

"On the contrary, the MUSIC from their live performances was expressly dedicated to the public."

Well, if you're the lawyer representing the whining masses, best of luck with that argument. They could have dedicated it to the memory of a thousand beached jellyfish, but that doesn't convey ownership.

The arrogance of those who are now shouting 'Greedy! Greedy!' is astonishing. The Grateful Dead, and any other artist for that matter, should be free to exercise their rights over their body of work in any way they see fit. To have it any other way would be to insure that no artist could ever earn a living, however rich or meager, from their craft, because apparently you believe that the Mona Lisa belongs to you by virtue of the fact that you took a picture of it in the Louvre. That, my friend, is the Bizarro-world that you are describing.

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Poster: manwich74 Date: Dec 4, 2005 4:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Total B.S.

Then call me arrogant! Guilty as charged by Ski Peru. All that matters here is that when Garcia said that once they played the music, they were done with it, he meant it. Chris U is a voice of sanity here. Now Bob and Bill all of a sudden after 40 years decide that they won't be able to make a living if people d/l the sbds? That they are suddenly going to be the Robin Hoods out there for all of the struggling artists with no voice? Think about that. Does that make sense? How else can it be categorized other that sheer greed. They saw DMB and Phish and a host of others do it and said, "damn! we CAN cash in on this." They traded a 40 year philosophy, an ethic, a spirit or whatever you want to call it for the $$$$. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. The Baby Boomers sold out to corporate America for the fast buck back in the 80's and apparently Bob finally got the memo.

NEWS FLASH!!!: WE buy their music, their shirts, their DVDs, THEIR INCOMPLETE SHOW DICK's PICKS recordings, the mugs, the posters, the calenders, the hand painted buses, the cookie jars and all the other stuff. We buy their $30, $45, $55 tickets even when they aren't making that much new, relevant music anymore. Isn't this enough? At least with the Dead, that music is as much ours as it is theirs. In how many books and interviews did the Dead members go on about how integral the audience was to the music all these years? We have been there all these years floating this monster. 1994 and 1995 SUCKED and we were there. Jerry died and the band splintered and WE remained faithful whether they were the Dead, Ratdog, PL&F or whatever. Whether or not an AUD tape is just as good, is missing the point. When its all about the money, it just plain sucks. Does everything have to be for sale?

Thank you Phil! Thank you Mickey! Thank you Hunter and John B. Thank you LMA (its not your fault). And to the Bob, the Suits and whoever else supports this baloney, you can fool yourselves but you can't fool karma. You guys are screwed. Enjoy the $$$$ cause you can't take it with you to the grave! (Although I hear the lawyers are working on that little issue too)

And Jerry rolls over once more...

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 5, 2005 6:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]

Ski Peru

"They could have dedicated it to the memory of a thousand beached jellyfish, but that doesn't convey ownership."

Do you have a case on point[]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-05 14:34:55

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 5, 2005 6:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]

Do you have a case

Please do not continue this here any more. Thanks.
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50210

See also:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 5, 2005 6:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]


Okay Diana -- you're the boss.

For the record, I thought the discussion was animated and interesting and useful.

I also find the deleting of the text of my post without prior warning unnecessary and obnoxious.

But you're the boss!

Have a great day.

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Poster: drew4utoo Date: Dec 5, 2005 7:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]

"Universal access to human knowledge"....by censorship!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 5, 2005 8:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]

give her a break - this is all gettin' redundant :(
let's move on people and enjoy ALL the music!!!

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Poster: westyvw Date: Dec 5, 2005 12:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: [Totalled]

Kind of ironic that the website that will recommend you move to another forum is also the website that has a way back machine to record you saying that in another forum.

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Poster: thowinstones Date: Dec 14, 2005 3:51am
Forum: etree Subject: The rich man in his summer home..sayin' just leave well enough alone....and the kids, they dance, to shake their bones

I feel as though Im "In the Dark"as I have just discovered the GDM, which I and many many others have supported for so very long. It's not about the money I have spent on shows and CDs and anything else imaginable. It's about the music. It's about our family that is so unique and an invaluable part of this world in which we live and hopefully, one day, this darkness will give, so that mankind and all living creatures great and small can live in harmony as we, our cherished family of deadheads did for so many years.... oh, and how we traveled so many roads together with the people we never knew, the people we did know, and the people who carried our love from city to city. Those people being you Bobby, Phil, Vince, Bill, Mickey, Pigpen, Donna, Keith, Brent, and all those behind the scenes we always appreciated that brought this wonderful music and good vibes throughout the world....Robert, Steve, David, Wavy, Bear....everyone who carried the torch, if you will, and to Jerry. The sweet strokes on the guitar and his vocals that he carried out as though he were living in the heart and soul of the songs that penetrated every ounce of our being. The world lost a beautiful soul 10 years ago. All we have left are the precious memories of shows, the recordings of that music which still create so many wonderful times that no one other than those who are present can possibly know as we sit in our homes, drive down the road, find an old ticket stub that evokes the days of old. That music brings a tear to an eye, a smile on the face, and in my case, pulls me out of hard times that each of us are faced with in our journey on this planet, which may othewise not been possible. If I were the sun, I'd look for shade.... If I were a river, I'd run uphill....ooooh Freedom.....OOOh Liberty....it's ok guys, Leave me alone, I'll find my own way home....Jerry... We love you, we miss you, and I hope you never see that your mates have fallen in to the black hole of greed......because we all know, you'd die for love... Respectfully, Tony Wirt, Roanoke, VA

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 14, 2005 4:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: The rich man in his summer home..sayin' just leave well enough alone....and the kids, they dance, to shake their bones

or for another puff of the persian... Ah yes, those sweet, sweet memories of Jerry barely able to stand as he forgot the chord progression to a Chuck Berry song.

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Poster: shnmat Date: Dec 19, 2005 7:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

There is no "Good News" here folks. downloading audience recordings is a waste of time. The serious recorders and collectors do not want less than average sounding shows. We spend a lot of time searching, sorting, selecting, converting and burning. So why not spend this time working on the digital soundboards. If Archive.org is not going to make the goods available, they should not provide anything at all.

I have lost major respect for Archive, making crappy sounding stuff available and holding on to the goods. Who needs it? The Grateful Dead would not want this!!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 19, 2005 7:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a month-old topic. Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: shnmat Date: Dec 20, 2005 2:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

I apologize for responding to a "month old" topic. I understand that it does create some redundancies. However, I I have been a "member" since yesterday. The one and only reason I became a member was to repsond to this posting, as it is a passionate subject to me.

Suggestion: To avoid getting replies to aging posts, try taking off links to old posts from the opening homepage, as they become dated. This is still a "forum".

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Poster: markpj Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I am grateful

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Poster: markpj Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I TO WILL BE SEEING RATDOG..I HEARD THEY ARE REALLY GOOD BUT IT IS HARD TO SAY THAT I WON'T BE THINKING BOBBY HAD A HAND IN THIS..I AM JUST GLAD THAT WE GOT AUD BACK AND HOPEFULLY THEY CAN PUT OUT AN SACD OR DTS..CAUSE YOU CANNOT DOWNLOAD THAT ANYWAY RIGHT

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Poster: dynohmike Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm grateful for Phil and Barlow. And it really puts a thorn in my birthday because I'm celebrating it on Sunday with Ratdog in Phoenix and it's not going to be even remotely as happy as I was hoping. It seems pretty apparent that Bob had a hand in this ugliness.

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Poster: Peter Kuhn Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Barlow only refers to Billy and Mickey in the decision to pull the Grateful Dead from archive.org. I take this to mean that Bobby was not involved, but was the Garcia estate?

So go enjoy Ratdog and have a Happy Birthday! I'm looking forward to Ratdog this Friday and some much needed "dance therapy" over this whole mess. :)

http://deadnews.blogspot.com/2005/11/boingboing-quotes-barlow-about.html

"You have no idea how sad I am about this. I fought it hammer and tong, but the drummers had inoperable bricks in their head about it."

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Poster: dynohmike Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Man, I really really hope you're right. The reason I said the thing about Bob in the post was a couple things in the New York Times today. Here's the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/arts/music/01dead.html
There's a couple things that he said that upset me big time.
"John Perry Barlow, one of the band's lyricists, said he had had a "pretty heated discussion" on Tuesday with Bob Weir, the Dead guitarist and singer, over the extent of the restrictions."
And here's another.
"Mr. Barlow said the blanket request to the Live Music Archive was driven by Mr. Weir and the band's drummers, Mickey Hart and Bill Kreutzmann. "It was almost as if they had just discovered it was happening, even though it's been online for at least three years," he said."
Ugh, I just hope we can get statements from everyone to clear up this freakin disaster. How on earth could even a causual listener of the Dead not know that Deadheads would completely flip out over something like this?!
In any case, I'm gonna take your advice, go have a blast with Ratdog on Sunday and do just like you said - give myself some dance therapy! Lots of it! It'll feel good to shake these blues. You have a killer time on Friday too man!

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Poster: smauvais Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Very good news indeed. It seems to strike the appropriate balance between keeping the music available and protecting GD's interests.

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Poster: maxlm2 Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm definitely glad to see something done about this relatively promptly. I only hope that the reversal of the shows being removed was because their initial removal was an accident and was not a result of GDM/GDP realizing they had committed suicide and made the worst marketing error possible. Today on Phil Lesh's website (www.phillesh.net) an apology was posted, which I thought was the right thing to do. Anyway, thanks to everyone for raising hell about this whole ordeal because had people simply remained silent the music we love might have become much more difficult to access.

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Poster: SpaceTrout Date: Dec 15, 2005 3:53am
Forum: etree Subject: New GD download policy

The remnants of the GD have lost their collective mind. Taking down the soundboard shows so they can sell them online will ultimately cost them more than they'll gain. I didn't mind buying Dick's Picks -- I have all but the last two, and a lot of other stuff as well. There were sound practical reasons for doing so. I've always supported the guys, and this is how I've been repaid. I suggest a boycott of all Dead products until this ends. You simply don't give someone something and then take it back and try to sell it to them.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 15, 2005 4:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to topic over two weeks old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

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Poster: Will Shine Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

You guys are a class act. The sun will shine in your backdoor someday...

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Poster: easybreeze Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

If the Grateful Dead actually gave the archive these SBDs I would agree with the new compromise. The problem is they didn't, WE DID. They allowed some tapers to patch in to the sound board with the understanding that these shows would be circulated among the GD community for years to come. Thats why they did it!
Soundboard shows that have not been circulated over the years are GDproperty. The ones they allowed to be taped and circulated(with no commercial gain from the traders) are ours.
I was thrilled to find out Phil and Barlowe didn't support this action. Anyone know what Hunter's saying.
Peace

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Poster: BillFromMA Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:54am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Yes huge thanks to Phil and to John Barlow. And continued shame on the other member of the Grateful Dead and their corporate organization. They make LMA apologize on their bahalf. Where is THEIR apology? McNally said a decision was made to pull the music. Barlow had a heated discussion with Weir (I'm still surprised that Weir was a part of the decision to pull the music). And Brewster has to issue an apology on behalf of The Archive? The Archive did not decide to pull the music. They were told to. Bobby, Billy and Mickey have created huge amounts of ill will. I will continue to boycott GDM/GDP, Rat-dog, Hydra and anything Billy ever chooses to do until they grow some testicles and issue their own apology. And I'm going to see Phil tonight - because he spoke up and got the music back for us.

Thanks Brewster, Diana and everyone else associated with The Archive for all you do. And for being big enough to apologize for something that you didn't even do to shield the real culprits.

EDIT: And isn't it ironic that the Dead's home page shows a charity auction titled.......

Bring the Music Back - Charity Drum Head Auctions

How about "Treat your fans right and bring the music back"!

This post was modified by BillFromMA on 2005-12-01 10:54:50

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive


Thank you for coming to our defence, but I would like to suggest that you take a broader view and find more heroes in this.

Everyone is really trying to figure out the Internet and bands are no different. Sometimes we make some turns in our paths, turns that we may regret, but please dont blame folks that are learning and moving.

A big change has been made after a week of pain. Personally I am relieved and happy to see that so much music is back available.

Lets make this work all the way around and mend our relationships with those we care about.

-brewster

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Poster: Fishead Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

"Lets make this work all the way around and mend our relationships with those we care about."

seems some here wish not do just that
and will remain bitter to the greatest band that ever walked the face of the earth....

and it's a real shame....

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Poster: squints777 Date: Dec 4, 2005 4:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Brewster, much love and respect for this website, I allways wanted to thank the people resposible for this site. It is by far my favorite website. I've been a deadhead since I was like twelve, my first show was in 1979. I downloaded it on this site. Thank you.
Now being a fan of this band has had its ups and downs over the years, its just part of that long strange trip.
As far as I remember, after going to a show I would want a tape of it. At first I'd get some audience tape, that would be good, except for the parts when the audience would drown out the band. However, if a soundboard of the show came available, the audience show would go out the window, you know what I mean? It's just frustrating.
Well I hope this whole thing gets sorted out and they allow the restoration of the site to its previous glory.

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Poster: luminarist Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thanks for the update. I'm just happy that I can listen to shows I haven't heard before and can re-listen to some i can't remember all to well. If I can download some...all the sweeter. Peace.

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Poster: pwfurther Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Two things I learned about this:

1. While I was listening and downloading shows Phil Lesh was too! Thats pretty cool.

2. Common sense does prevail

Thanks archive for all that you do, much appreciated.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:52pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Artists using the library

One of the coolest stories we got was when a musician hadn't heard her old band's music for years and came across a couple of shows here. :)

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Poster: SkeeterJones Date: Nov 30, 2005 7:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: HOW IS THIS GOOD NEWS?? IT'S NOT EVEN NEWS!!

What is the news here, brewster? didn't you say when this first happened that AUDs would stay, SBDs would be only available for stream? I don't get why anyone thinks this is news. Nothing's changed at all. What the hell has changed? NOTHING.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 30, 2005 8:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

There is a significant increase in the amount of music we are able to present under this new announcement, relative to the plan in the announcement
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=47634
at the very beginning of this nine day wonder.

Yay!

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Poster: homelessjoe Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

I want to give credit to those who understand what this change brings. We still have access to plenty of non-SBD recordings just like it used to be back in the day. We didn't complain about what we had access to when it was strictly analog. If you had it and you could hear it there was no bitching about the source. We have been blessed with the advent of technology, but we have also been spoiled by it. Technology has turned some into greedy, selfish bastards who can't comprehend the reasoning behind corporate decisions. As far as I am concerned, it is still spreading the music of The Grateful Dead whether it is soundboard offerings or not. The quality may not always be there, but B.F.D. Its quite simple, if you don't want audience recordings, don't download them. I have seen the trading community fall apart over the last couple of years due to this new attitude possessed by most involved. Compared to some of us, you are still newbies because the mentality displayed by some (not all) is much to be desired. There used to be some respect in the community because you had to actually face people to hand a tape over until someone came up with the great idea of posting tape lists on-line. Every step that was made to improve trading and tape accessibility, lowered the standards and attitudes of most involved. Trading has become a faceless, almost personless transaction. Don't get me wrong, I love being able to download shows because of the overwhelming amount of content for use at our disposal, but all of these negative posts because people aren't getting what they want out of something is just sad. Like I said before, it has made us selfish. For people that seed shows to BitTorrent sites and for those who upload seeds to the archive deserve the utmost respect because they are continuing to give to the community whether it be Dead material or Sleater-Kinney. To go out and have to hassle with setting up a rig, making sure no one bumps into the stand, keeps his or her talking down to a minimum to avoid their mics picking up their voices and flawing their recording, and all to give it to us and some still criticize the quality and then the taper's integrity. This shit is hard work and as time goes by, it is less appreciated by people who haven't made the attempt to this for anyone let alone themselves. Before I turn this into a 50,000 word rambling of my disappointment with my own community, I will end it by saying three words that should be used for traders, bands decisions, and all the websites that make it possible for us to acquire such gems, soundboard and otherwise: RESPECT, APPRECIATE, PRAISE. Respect everyone amongst the community, appreciate what they do for you, and praise them for a hard job well done.

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

I agree with most of this post. I think that the whole SBD vs AUD debate is a bit silly and anyone who automatically thinks a SBD will always be better has never heard the magic of a good AUD where you can hear the electricity of the reaction of the crowd with the band. Heck, one of my all-time favorite GD shows is 3/1/92, an AUD source, mainly due to the "Sugar Magnolia" where you can hear the crowd singing along with every word and just generally going nuts.

That being said, my main concern is that -- primarily due to the quality of AUD recordings going up as the years go by -- it appears the earlier years on the archive are pretty thin here. I'd would guess this is due to the SBDs sounding better in general, such that the AUDs were just not being posted. Hopefully, this will change in the coming weeks.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: fiyo fiyo Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

explain this to me... if the dead are so worried about the soundboards, then why aren't they available for d/l? they're only available to stream... don't they release people can't be infront of their computers all day? lol i mean seriously....

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Poster: laptaper Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

WORD!!!

I can't say it better myself, better just let it be. :-)

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Change of news

"Compared to some of us, you are still newbies because the mentality displayed by some (not all) is much to be desired. There used to be some respect in the community because you had to actually face people to hand a tape over until someone came up with the great idea of posting tape lists on-line."

In addition to the stunning arrogance of the above comment, one is struck by absurdity of the "argument."

Apparently the Grateful Dead's sudden but completely rational (i.e., greed-based) "realization" that they must forbid the digital dissemination of soundboard recordings (I assume that analog dissemination is still permitted) should be greeted with applause they were "so generous for so long."

And to the extent that I react with shock and dismay over the 100% about-face in attitude by this once apparently benevolent band, it is because I haven't been around as Mr. Deader-Than-Thou, the guy responsible for the above quote.

News flash: you look really silly on your high horse.

You've just been chumped by the Grateful Dead and whether it's fanaticism or just plain cluelessness, your pretending that it's a GOOD THING.

What gives?

I really do suspect that some of the extreme buttkissing that is going on here is happening because of fears of being sued and shutting ALL Dead tape trading on the Internet down.

You really think that is going to happen? Are the remaining members of the Band and their attorneys that stupid as to to try and do that?

I don't think so. They may be naive but nobody is that freaking dumb.

It sure would be interesting to see how quickly 40 years of goodwill vanishes amidst a pile of intellectual property legal briefs.

Then again, based on what I see here today, I wouldn't be surprised to find a bunch of script-reciters saying, "The Dead are sueing us? Well, it's their right. They've been so generous for so long that it's about time they sued their fans. We should be happy that they waited so long before doing so."

This whole episode is really really really sad and it's getting sadder with every passing day.

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Poster: howdydoo Date: Dec 15, 2005 12:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Dead is officially dead. Later bob weir, corporate grubbin' freak. I'll go see Hunter and Phill, that's it. They can stick all their digital library up their arse!

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Poster: DJ;)(G4 Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thank you! Seems pretty fair. Not as fantastic a situation as it was before, but even having just the aud shows available is still awesome.

I imagine I wasn't the only one to be surprised and delighted when I discovered that all these shows were here on archive.org. It seemed almost too good to be true.... It reminds me of if the cable company were inadverdantly to hook up all the channels there are for free. You gotta hate it when it goes away, but you can't really complain too much. I mean, these shows are still available out there, but now ya gotta get em in the old-fashioned way again.

Besides, I like the auds better anyway.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

"I imagine I wasn't the only one to be surprised and delighted when I discovered that all these shows were here on archive.org. It seemed almost too good to be true...."

Yeah, I remember thinking that way when someone gave me my first soundboard tape.

You mean the band doesn't care that people trade these shows? I thought that was too good to be true ....

And guess what?

As of today, I was right. It was too good to be true.

Someone up above mentioned the Rolling Stones. The only difference now between the Dead and the Rolling Stones when it comes to trading live recordings is that the Stones aren't flip-flopping hypocrites.

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Poster: drew4utoo Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:07am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Tell the folks at GDM how you feel! Here's a copy of the e-mail I ust sent them about 10 minutes ago.

To Whom It May Concern:

Please remove my name from your mailing list and refrain from sending me any further sales information by e-mail. I would also like to be removed from the Almanac mailing list as well. I will no longer be making any purchases from GDM because of the new policy regarding the live music archive. While I still am very much a fan of the Grateful Dead's music, I cannot in all honesty support the members of the group financially with my purchases, knowing that they are the people responsible for this policy. I am especially disturbed by the comments made by Dennis McNally in reference to the live music archive when he said, "The idea of a massive one-stop Web site that does not build community is not what we had in mind. Our conclusion has been that it doesn't represent Grateful Dead values." Having spent time visiting this website over the past few months I can say that I very much felt a sense of community browsing the shows in the collection, listening to the music, reading the reviews and comments, and reminiscing about the shows I'd attended. I have to say that Mr. McNally's comments are quite contrary to my impressions of the LMA and I have to wonder exactly what he's referring to when he says " Grateful Dead values"?

I suspect that all of this boils down to capitalistic values and even though I respect the remaining band-members rights to their intellectual property, I think they are wrong in their decision to take back something that has existed in the public domain for years, with their knowledge and approval. The distribution of the Dead's music (AUDs & SBDs) through the trading community has only benefited the group and increased the public's awareness and desire to purchase official music and merchandise in my opinion. Why punish us with this new policy now?  It is not as if Deadheads broke into the vault and stole the soundboard tapes! The ability to listen to and download quality shows from LMA actually rekindled my interest in the Dead's music and made me eager to purchase items from the "official catalogue" such as the new DVD and Fillmore shows CDs. Sadly I will not be making these purchases or any future purchases from GDM because of the band's/management's recent decision.

I've been a fan and supporter of the Grateful Dead since 1977, went to my first show in 1979 and didn't stop going until the year before Jerry died. I feel betrayed by this decision and I'm afraid that this new policy and the feelings I have now will forever taint my recollections and experiences with the band. If things change in the future and LMA is allowed to provide public access to download all shows not being officially released then of course my position would change as well and I would once again feel comfortable making purchases from GDM. If this is to happen, I hope that it is soon. Until then…adios!





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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

A great letter! Thank you for taking the initiative.

Up above someone wrote

"Let them sell their soundboards, it's their right, isn't it?"

Um, sure. The Dead can sell THEIR soundboards. I'll pay whoever $5,000 right now for the master reels to the complete Austin show from November 1972.

But what about the soundboards that the Dead have been allowing people to trade freely for the past, oh, 30 years? Do the Dead have the right to suddenly say, "Oh, you know that free distributiong thing with those tapes? We changed our minds."

I am not sure that they do. In fact, I doubt that they have copyrights to those tapes.

"But we still get to trade auds (oh, and the THOUSANDS of soundboards out in circulation already, if you don't want to drop the bucks once or twice a year)."

Do we get to trade soundboards? So the Dead "allows" us to freely trade them on tape as long as they aren't offered digitally for free? Is that how it works?

And the Dead has a legal right to do this ... based on ... what exactly?

I'm still waiting for an answer with a tad more thought behind it than "They made the music."

Orson Welles made a movie called "The Stranger."

Guess what? It's in the public domain. Orson Welle's estate doesn't get to run around and threaten people who try to distribute copies of the movie.

See how that works?

It's called "the law." Our rights come from a document called the US Constitution.

The Grateful Dead didn't write the US Constitution.

They wrote a song called Jack Straw, though. Remember that one? "We can share the women, we can share the wine."

But not the soundboards, evidently.

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Chris U. -- Dude you seem to be making more noise than anyone else here, but most of that noise is just misinformation! You're obviously not a lawyer, you have a minimal understanding of copyright law, yet you're spouting off here about what GD can and cannot do legally, and how the laws and the US Constitution work???

And now you've dragged Orson Welles into it, like somehow that's going to prove your point. Well here are the facts in response to your errors:
You wrote -- "Orson Welles made a movie called "The Stranger." Guess what? It's in the public domain. Orson Welle's estate doesn't get to run around and threaten people who try to distribute copies of the movie.
"
In terms of your argument, you're not painting the complete picture. In 1946 Orson Welles directed 'The Stranger' as an employee of the studio International Pictures, through the film's Producer, Sam Spiegel. The rights to the work were owned by either the studio, or the producer, but not by Welles himself, nor his estate. Without specific contractual arrangement, the rights over an employee's work product are maintained by the employer. Years earlier, when he directed Citizen Kane, Welles had a unique contract with RKO which gave him full creative control over the finished product, however he never enjoyed such contol over subsequent studio productions -- only of those which were self-produced did he maintain ownership. That the Welles estate has no control over what is done with 'The Stranger' has nothing to do with Welles' ownership rights -- he never had any with regard to 'The Stranger'. The film is now public domain because either copyright law did not permit the extension of rights, or the owner did not exercise them.

Before you go off any further trying to lay public domain ownership over recorded material - have a quick look at this - it might surprise you to learn just how wrong you are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain#Public_Domain_and_the_Internet

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Poster: spinneresque Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

People, please! Don't be fooled! This was their plan ALL ALONG, and the worst part about it is that they think you will believe it wasn't, that they were 'moved be the reaction of the deadheads.' Half of us are pacified because they 'gave us back the AUDs.' All the work and community contribution and VOLUNTEER TIME that has gone into building this archive, all gone, and for what. It is SO SAD.

I wrote this petition:

Grateful Dead music inspires in its fans an extraordinary passion, hence this news of pulling the archive is breaking the heart of thousands of people today. We see the Grateful Dead historically as a representation of something pure and good. In order to love something so much, you have to trust it. Despite the stereotypes and social mockery, we have proudly remained fans of the Grateful Dead for all these years, defending it and ourselves because we knew in our heart that this music we are following is good, and pure. Some say we have no right to protest this mid-game ‘changing of the rules.’ But what those people are not accounting for is the MILLIONS of hours that Deadheads have collectively spent in combining, uploading, remastering, patching flawed recordings.....voluntarily, and out of love, and trusting that it would be shared freely. In our opinion, at this point to stop the free sharing of these recordings is so sad, and so wrong. Jerry is gone, and he has no say, and we all know what he would have said. This is unfair to us. So much work has gone into building the archive. Please let it stand.

You can sign it here:
http://new.petitiononline.com/02108108/petition.html

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Poster: Fukkad! Date: Dec 26, 2005 5:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Thanks! and in 'TIME'

http://www.fukkad.com/

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Poster: wwells Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hooray! No need to apologize, LMA - and thanks so much for your efforts here.

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Poster: pookie Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:40pm
Forum: etree Subject: This is NOT good news

Let me understand this, Over a week ago We were able to DOWNLOAD soundboards, and audience recording for fun and for free. And now on 11-30-05 you could you only stream the soundboards. This is NOT good news. You should never give something out for free than take it back. That just bad karma. I understand the Grateful Dead has provided us fans with dedicades of outstanding live concerts. However us fans have also given to the band, thru purchasing tickets, spending money on traveling throughout this wonderful country supporting them for forty years.

I personally have bought almost all the Dick Picks series, and Vault CD's & DVD's.

Even though I have downloaded soundboards for free, I have purchase goods from GDM as well. I feel it has been pretty even between the band and the fans. So to take away the ability to download soundsboards is a very ungrateful mean spirited thing for the band (except Phil) and thier management to do to the deadicate following.

At least Metallica has never given out free soundboards, it always has been about the money $$$ with them. Metallica is upfront with thier greed. Streaming soundboards is NOT good news. :-(


PS. To all the good folks at LMA, I do appreciate all the hard work that is done on this website DAILY. It is a blessing. THANK YOU, THANK YOU

This post was modified by pookie on 2005-11-30 21:40:44

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Poster: TreesRocksRivers Date: Nov 30, 2005 10:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Agreed, this is not good news if you ask me.

First off, can someone tell me exactly who decided to pull the sounboards for download off the site? Was it the dead, was it archive, or who?

I guess I just don't get it. The soundboards are a clearer way to listen to exactly what was happening musically, and its a shame that we're going to lose this ability. I see no point in reducing the quality of the music on pupose. The only reason to pull these shows from download is if the dead believes they are being sold to make profit. Give me a break... if that's the concern, why not put the shows up for free as they were so there would be no reason to buy copies since everyone could get them for free anyway.

Why is it always money ruining a good thing.

I'm all for protecting the dead's interest in their product, but so many of us not only browse archive, but buy shirts, DVD's... hell I even bought some golf balls on their website for a gift once. It all balances out, things were fine as they were, with soundboards available for download as well as streaming.

Bring back the boards.

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

We have been very fortunate to have the LMA for the last while. If you did not learn that over the last week, then I don't know what's wrong with you. Now is not the time to be complaining. It's a time to be thankful that our concerns were addressed. And be thankful that the sbds are still hear to listen to and research and if you find one you like, then you can go out and find a copy of it. They're all out there. I don't know what makes you think that you are entitled to any more than this. You are an ungrateful, selfish person.

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Poster: tcappellett Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I am fine with just the boards being available for streaming..I really didn't download them anyway because it just took up too much space. Problem is, where are they? I just checked and it is still only showing aud listings?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:34am
Forum: etree Subject: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

The audienced based downloads should all be up now.

Streaming soundboards are coming back in the next day or so, we appreciate your patience.

The website is slow and wobbly based on the traffic to the forums.

onward!

-brewster


This post was modified by brewster on 2005-12-01 09:34:42

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Poster: patkelley Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

out of curiosity- how did Vault recordings make there way here?
I usually stream the shows anyways, so the D/L issue affects me somewhat less. But, I did find it kind of strange that the Band (or their agents, or whomever) did what they did after all the GD members expressly relinquished claims to their recordings. Although I realize that they probably intended for their generosity to extend primarily to AUD recordings (which brings me back to the question I led with).
You've created a great thing here, Brewster, and I hope that you dont take the much criticism from some folks too seriously.
PK

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Poster: ednro Date: Dec 2, 2005 5:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Thank God for Diana Hamilton. What a sweethearted, kind, not-a-mean-sprited-bone-in-her-body lady; putting up with us angry Deadheads for the past two weeks.

I, for one, am glad we have the auds back for downloading, and am hoping fervently that the sbds come back shortly for downloading, also.

Thank you, Diana, for the calming influence you have had on the Archive and us Deadheads!

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Poster: Tampa Red Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Thank God for Diana Hamilton. What a sweethearted, kind, not-a-mean-sprited-bone-in-her-body lady; putting up with us angry Deadheads for the past two weeks.

I, for one, am glad we have the auds back for downloading, and am hoping fervently that the sbds come back shortly for downloading, also.

Thank you, Diana, for the calming influence you have had on the Archive and us Deadheads!


You have just got to be kidding me...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mal-lingering

Wow, you found your way back here even without a bookmark! ;)
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=48753

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-08 18:52:58

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Poster: musicflyz Date: Dec 8, 2005 11:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Due to Hurricane Katrina, I just lost a computer with lots of '74 to '77 shows on the hardrive. I live in New Orleans and am a longtime fan of the Dead. Ever since I caught that one off show back in the late 80's, I have been collecting shows.
While I long to be able to download shows, anything at this point in time is considered a blessing.
I too am at least a bit thankful for the ability to stream some shows.
I mainly listen to vinyl anyway so I guess I am in the minority in this age of digital.

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Poster: ednro Date: Dec 8, 2005 10:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD soundboard streaming versions up in the next day (Dec 1 or 2) or so

Well, as of Dec. 2, that was the case. The times they are a'changing. and that sucks.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Deep breath now- OMM

(Blush) Thanks! The favor I call in:

If any more people can give me a hand with calming things here now, rather than heating things up here (since almost all possible viewpoints have been pretty fully expressed at this point and are getting a bit redundant again), that would be really great. It would be wonderful to have things settle down so we can get back to enjoying music and talking about other bands too and stuff.

Possibly a lot of folks can help do that it practice. The key is in trying to have the patience, balance and perspective to reply- or *not* to reply- appropriately to others. So, give it a try! Thanks again!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 16:57:36

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Nov 30, 2005 8:43pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I have to disagree with you, Pookie. It seems to me that the changed arrangement is one which restores the availability of concert recordings in much the same way as they were available in 1972 or '77 or '89, while protecting both the interests and the legacy of the creators. The message was always something along the lines of "You want a memento of this show, go ahead and stick a mic up -- you want to spread the joy, that's all good too, just don't be making money off what we give you for free." The fact that soundboards ever made it into circulation was gravy -- whether it was by board patch or by later copy, those board recordings exist specifically by the generosity of someone on the inside. Regardless, from start to finish, it's still theirs; all those beautiful recordings are the product of the performers' creativity coursing through wires paid for by their success. We were free to grab it out of the air, but it was never suggested that we were entitled to the board source.

Forty years ago no one could have conceived that a mechanism might one day exist through which release-quality concert recordings might be marketed - in fact, from the perspective of the recording industry's business mavens, it would have been absurd to even think that a market might exist for several thousand seemingly similar 'live albums'. But the Boys have always been a horse of a different color, and they keenly understood the marketing model they'd established, and the medium was the traded audience tape saying "Here's what it sounds like. Tell your friends where you got it. If you like what you hear, you'll buy a ticket to the next show." It seems to me that this new arrangement adheres to the same model, except that now the medium will be the streamed board recordings, and the next show will be the lossless digital source - if you like what you hear, you'll go to their site and purchase it. I don't have a problem with that. Chances are many of the source tapes that they have will sound better than some of the SBD recordings on the Archive which have been run through some Junior Recording Engineer's digital meat grinder.

Ultimately, we have to remember that LMA is a library. I wouldn't go to my library expecting Dickens to hand me his manuscript of Tale of Two Cities, and whatever reproduction he did give me, I know I'd have to return it in two weeks. The only thing that belongs to me in the transaction is the enrichment I derive. That's all I expect.

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Poster: Bill e. Brock Date: Dec 5, 2005 2:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

thanks ski for having some reality based thinking out here. in our lives we have become accustomed to having expectations. but as a great sage once said, "expectations are premeditated resentments".(actually, it was some lady at a 12 step meeting). this situation is just another oppurtunity for folks to grow.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

"You want a memento of this show, go ahead and stick a mic up -- you want to spread the joy, that's all good too, just don't be making money off what we give you for free." "

Two points:

(1) The idea that the Dead sanctioned only the free trading of audience tapes is 100% bullcrap. I am stunned to see people claiming otherwise. What is going on here????

(2) As far as I can tell, no one at the archive was making money from downloaded shows and no one was permitted to upload a copy of an officially released Dead show for downloading. So I fail to see the money issue ...

...you're actually arguing that the Dead have the right to turn back the clock and pretend that they never actually donated all those soundboard recordings to the public.

Is that what you're arguing??

If so, then let's hear the argument instead of some half-assed "justification" for allowing some members of the Dead organizations to gratify themselves any way they please.

Again: the Dead has every right to make new mixes and fancy new "high definition" digital copies of the master tapes in their vault and SELL THEM TO US. If they are GOOD MIXES and they are GOOD SHOWS/SELECTIONS and they are PACKAGED NICELY we will BUY THEM as long as they PRINT ENOUGH COPIES FOR US TO BUY (hint hint).

But the Dead simply do not have the right -- legally -- to take back recordings that were given to the public freely to exchange. And that is what they are doing with this "compromise". It is bogus. It is wrong.

It is greedy.

Someone here hilariously tried to argue that the Dead have always wanted to be paid for playing.

Guess what?

The Dead were paid very handsomely for playing. Remember how they used to sell tickets for their shows? I had to pay for my ticket. I don't know about you. I believe the Dead actually made some money from playing that music. And they made money partly because they ALLOWED their soundboard recordings to be freely traded so that people could hear what they sounded like and people came to see them play, etc., etc.

Now Bob Weir is sitting in his rocking chair and his kid or his stock portfolio manager is saying: hey, you could make more money if you CHARGED people for downloading those soundboard recordings instead of giving them away like you have been routinely doing for the past 40 years.

Totally bogus.

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Poster: llull Date: Jan 5, 2006 1:43pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

For fun and for free, ditto that and a fine forthright opinion that holds true for me too. Thank you for expressing it "without a net" amidst a sea of yea sounds fair yesheads.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Pookie,

I can understand your point that you now do not have easy access to the soundboards that you used to. But to look at it another way, the Grateful Dead did not put these shows on the archive site to give away, the a dedicated group of fans did. So in a sense the Dead did not put them there, so blaming them for taking them away is not quite right, but I understand that is subtle, stay with me a moment...

We have moved them to stream only to try to build a compromise that works. The soundboards, as I understand it, mostly came from their "vault" as differenciated from the audience recordings. This seem to be an understandable differentiation line.

But the bigger issue for me is that all the great music is accessible again in some form or another. We work towards "Universal Access to All Knowledge". Some of that access will come with some restrictions if it is going to be free (such as having to go to a library to check out a book).

When music became unavailable in any form (at least without having to resort to sending cassettes through the mail once again) we were very sad. Now there is some version of these concerts available to all.

Maybe this helps, maybe not, but it is another point of view.

-brewster





This post was modified by brewster on 2005-11-30 22:04:32

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Poster: A Dude Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

What I would like to see restored is all the reviews written by Archive patrons, including the ones about shows that are no longer available.

I'm not talking about the recordings, just the reviews, and I'm referring to a situation that pre-dates 11/23.

In some cases, particular dates led to pages with reviews that then said "no longer available, you can purchase the commercial release here" with a link to gdstore.com .

But in other cases, the date was removed entirely, as if the GD had never played a show on that date - and all the reviews were lost.

Having a page for all the dates, with links to their store, can only help the GD. It's a win-win, and I'm baffled as to why the dates were removed.

I hope that this was also a miscommunication, and the year pages can have links to every show played, and the ones that have commercial releases have links to the store, plus our reviews.

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Nov 30, 2005 2:29pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news


Our intention has been to always leave the set lists and reviews up as a resource even for shows that are not available because they are being sold. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We will try to fix this.

-brewster


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Poster: Fishead Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:15pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

well said brewster...
i dont get what's so hard to understand.
glad you guys are level headed at LMA.

Peace and jerry on!!!

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Poster: Andy C. Date: Dec 1, 2005 10:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: VERY DISHEARTENING

I just received a reply from the GD ticketing people. I sent them an email stating that my support of the related projects and merchandise is done as long as this situation stands. I recieved a scathing responce from a gal by the name of Ruby. She seemed to have a problem with the fact that I saw my first show in 91 telling me that "Oh.... 1991..... How cute.....You missed a lot of good lessons then. Yeah... Ruby." It seems as though us newbies that have only supported the orginization for the past 14 years don't count anyway. After having this arrogant individual crap on me I feel even better about my decision NOT to continue my support. I guess if you havent been around for 40 years they don't need you anyway!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 3:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

I expect you are aware that the ticketing service had nothing to do with any of the events of this past week or so. Given that fact, I imagine anyone would be able to sympathize with Ruby and company there, who have probably received many, many misdirected messages by now, some of them probably impolite or even angry.

There are very few tempers that would not be frayed by having to deal with that misdirected anger. Very few would not become at least icily polite under the circumstances. Even Miss Manners would approve of the latter. True?

My heart goes out to Ruby, Margaret and whoever else had to man the phones, mail or email at any GD-affiliated operation this past week.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 11:33:28

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Poster: Andy C. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

Please let me clarify... When I first wrote to the GD tix people I was very polite and simply stated that as long as the current situation existed I would not give any further economic support. I was not pointing fingers at anyone. I was VERY taken back from the responce I recieved from Ruby. I have now had further discussions with Ruby and she apologized for the statement she had made.

Unfortunately, most of the related web sites do not have good contact information for questions or concerns. I mearly have sent the meaasge to whoever I could that my support is on hold until this matter is resolved.

Ruby truly sounds like a good person who has been catching hell for the poast few days. I can only urge folks to be polite and try to be respectful as the folks first recieving these messages did not make this decision.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Ruby as I did not realize she was kidding when she made the statement. Given the circumstances, I didn't think for a minute that anyone could joke about this.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

I did not realize she was kidding when she made the statement. Given the circumstances, I didn't think for a minute that anyone could joke about this.

Awesome, now I can *really* sympathize with Ruby! Sister! :)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-02 12:57:48

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Poster: deanlambrecht Date: Dec 2, 2005 6:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Very sympathetic to Ruby et al

Ruby is one of the kindest, gentlest people on earth. We're all prone to blow up under difficult circumstances. Trust me, Ruby will go the extra mile for you when you need it. I'm very glad you were able to reconcile with her, and thanks for your apology. Ruby has done more for Deadheads than most anyone in the organization, and deserves heaps of praise and respect, and nothing less.

A devoted friend of Ruby,
Dean

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Poster: John H Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Brewster you are wrong. The soundboards did NOT come from the Dead's vaults. The Dead let tapers patch into the soundboard at the shows to get a better quality sound.

So this "compromise" seems to be something YOU have decided based on incorrect information. Sounds like the same incorrect information that led to the original snafu of taking ALL the music off the site.

If you've read Phil's statement, http://www.phillesh.net/philzonepages/friends_stuff/hotline.html , he is saying he wants ALL the music restored, not just the audience tapes.

Come on, get in synch with the band. Ask them (the band not their management) what shows to put on the site and stop making decisions on your own. I believe the band would want all the shows available, soundboards included, and if not we will know why and who is ultimatly behind this decision to limit the archives.

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Poster: OBIEtree Date: Dec 3, 2005 9:14pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

to my knowledge the Dead never let anyone patch into the SBD at shows, especially for better quality. the patches were more likely in exchange for personal favors to the sound person, who then told the people not to let them escape into circulation.

here's a prime example of how a vault recording made it into the wild, without permission from the band.
it's the detailed lineages that prove your theory incorrect.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: April 22nd, 1977
Venue: The Spectrum
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Source: SBD
Lineage: 7 inch Master Reels @ 7.5ips 1/2trk> Dat> Dat (44.1k),
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

the 7 inch master reels, which were paid for by the band and recorded by the bands employee were transferred to DAT.
now who did that transfer? based on the background of this recording we know it was Dick Latvala, a GD employee at the time, then it went to another DAT at 44.1k which usually signifies a Latvala Leak. there was no patch into the SBD and these Latvala leaks were circulated after Dick's passing because the people had hush agrrements with Dick, not the band.
people got in trouble for that and were forced by GDP to return the DATs to GDP. many of those people no longer are active in the public trading community because of the threats of prosecution they got if the recordings made it into circulation.

if the recording comes from the SBD MR or MC it means it came from the Vault, that's what the lineage is for to identify the source. master tapes are vault copies that then went to PCM or DAT by someone in the organization and then were leaked to a couple people and eventually escaped into circulation.

the history of the tapes is sometimes almost as interesting in the recordings themselves.

the best description of how the recording made it into the archive is here.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49431

OBIE

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Poster: evergladephish Date: Feb 8, 2006 9:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Not true .. I specifically remember watching tapers patch intto the board as recently as 1994 in Eugene, Oregon.

This post was modified by evergladephish on 2006-02-08 17:28:20

This post was modified by evergladephish on 2006-02-08 17:29:01

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Poster: choco45 Date: Feb 8, 2006 9:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

dude.you forgot the Chapel Hill Run in 1993.Don't give me no crap story like "Healy did it because he was going to fly the coop soon" or something like that.

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Poster: evergladephish Date: Feb 8, 2006 10:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

There were many instances where people patched in, I was just pointing out the most recent one that I witnessed ... and I'm not sure what you mean, "don't give me no crap..." ????? I'm not sticking up for Healy ... soundboard patches were common throughout the band's history.

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Their Vault? I NEVER knew that the TAPERS had access to this VAULT i keep hearing about...

The sbds in question are from the shelves or drawers of the TAPERS but NOT from the GD Vault......If they do not own the physical tapes,they're WRONG!!!!! If they didn't want to have sbds circulated,they wouldn't have LET THE TAPERS PLUG IN!!!!!!!

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Poster: liranfa Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

In case some of you haven't been to Phil's site in the last 24 hours, he released a FREE soundboard of 11/22/05 from his current tour. I can only believe that this is a reaction to the recent events that his bandmates and/or affiliations have engaged in. As Phil's site says..."Remember, the music is free!". I love Phil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now Mickey has made a public statement siding with Phil.......that leaves Billy and Bobby. Who pulled the plug? Internal strife continues!!!!!!

This post was modified by liranfa on 2005-12-03 11:35:09

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Poster: ehrichweiss Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

Everyone I know who has ever met or talked to Bobby will tell you that he's the likely culprit(they use choice words about his attitude). Bill is a possibility but only because he doesn't really have that much to fall back on these days. My vote's on Bob.

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Poster: liranfa Date: Dec 3, 2005 5:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

What is stunning to me is the lack of communication between the boys. What happened to the lovey-dubby feeling that permeated the first couple of tours? Some friends of mine who claim to be "in the know" (I never usually give these people much credence), claim that the boys were not getting along again at the end of the summer 2004 tour. I'm now thinking they were right and that they might not play together again. The Dead make "All My Children" look like amateur hour.

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Poster: ehrichweiss Date: Dec 3, 2005 8:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Phil Lesh Strikes!!!

Yeah, I kinda equate it to what happened to my whole family on my father's side when my grandmother died. Once she was gone, everyone was free to bicker at will and eventually enough feelings were hurt to tear the thing apart. Took them about a year to do so but they did it rather well.

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 30, 2005 4:07pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Halfway there,but still not great news....The SBDS came from the TAPERS from cassettes and reels that the TAPERS paid for,ran and maintained for YEARS. ...NOT FROM THE GD VAULT!!!!!

They are NO different from the audience tapes....The GD NEVER donated a single millisecond of music to the archive personally!!!!! These are OUR tapes and we should be able to do WHATEVER we want with them!!!!!

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Poster: Gizmology Date: Dec 1, 2005 2:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Right on! You hit the nail on the head. Our tapes. Our music. They own what they have in their vaults. If this were 10-20 years ago how CRAZY would it be if a band member, or someone from the GD orginization were to show up at your house and demand you hand over your SBD tapes?! Unreal.

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Poster: aikox2 Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Hear, hear!

Don't be so easily appeased by the GD giving back half of our own property which was taken away unrightfully in the first place.

Not only must they give back OUR SBDS, they should contribute a few recordings of their by way of apology and as a show of good faith in the hopes of healing the rift they caused.

Aiko

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 2, 2005 1:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

This is the Grateful Dead's music. They got up every morning and went to work every day for 25 years in order to to bring this music to you. This music was their JOB. It was their 24-hour concern for 25 years (and counting). They went to bed thinking about this music, they woke up thinking about this music, and they spent every second of every day thinking about this music -and they did this for 25 years (and counting). Three musicians died in the process, and the remaining four are continuing onward, driven by a force that is impossible to understand -the very same impossible force that took the lives of their friends.
Tapers, although passionate about their own craft, are NOT members of the band. They will NEVER know the amount of work it takes to keep a band, much less a successful band, together for 25 years. The Grateful Dead is a JOB. Taping is a HOBBY.

Keeping six band members employed, content, secure, and alive for 25 years is a JOB.
Tape trading is a HOBBY.

Touring the country, battling local officials over sound ordinances, and making sure promoters don't steal your money for 25 years is a JOB.
Taping a show is a HOBBY.

Writing music, setting up rehearsals, recording albums, finding producers, agents, and road managers that you can trust, battling tendonitis, driving all night to make the next gig, dealing with not getting sleep for 48 hour stretches at a time, standing for 4-hours with an ergonomically incorrect 30lb. weight on your back every day and every night for 25 years straight is a JOB.
Taping a show is a HOBBY. Get the picture?

The money in Bob Weir's pocket is HIS not YOURS. He EARNED it. He WORKED for it. The Grateful Dead is the Grateful Dead's property and no one else's. If they decided to draw some boundry lines on their property, or build a picket fence around it, then they had every right to do so.

The Grateful Dead has every right in the world to do whatever they want with these recordings. We should be thankful for having the privilege of getting this stuff for free this whole time, purely out of the band's graciousness, generosity, and patience. They could have very easily told all of you guys to go screw yourselves, but they didn't -and we should be thankful for that because we have been lucky. But luck, as you know, always runs out, and the best we can do is prepare for the worst when it is gone. If the Grateful Dead decided to one day take these recordings back, then all we could do was be thankful for basically winning the Grateful Dead lottery for the last 25 years. And THAT'S good news.

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Poster: Bill74 Date: Dec 2, 2005 10:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: This IS good news...

I very rarely reply to posts or message boards, but I have to say that I totally agree with biginjapan. This is not "our" music. You can argue to what degree it is the band's music at this point, but that's beside the point. My point is that it's not ours-we don't own it or any rights to it in any way. We should appreciate that the band has been as unselfish as it has been for all these years, and I think the current remedy is good and fair. We have more than fair access returned to us, and some of the band's interest is protected. Not to mention, I think we are fortunate that this situation has been taken care of in any way as quickly as it has been. Sometimes you can't have just exactly what you want, and it's important to appreciate the part of what you want that you do have.

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Poster: ludig Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

They've been together for 40 years, but you can say, "25 years and counting" if you wish.

I'm not pissed off and I'm personally not moaning about this situation. I signed the petition to let the band know how I felt.

I will say that I'm disappointed in the way this situation was handled. I will also say that I have purchase almost every single SBD that has been released by GDP and GDM.
Even if I have already downloaded a super-clean version for FREE, I always PAY for the boards released by the band.

I feel that I owe it to them for all the wondeful music they have given us. On the other hand, I'm unhappy that I can't download more boards until they release them for me to purchase. This is truly a bummer.

Later folks,
lu-2@prodigy.net

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Well, 25, or 40 years with an asterisk. There's still guys out there who say the band died with Pigpen.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

Here we go again with the entire argument presented in one conclusory statement:

"The Grateful Dead has every right in the world to do whatever they want with these recordings."

Actually, that's not the way copyright law works under the present circumstances, where the band has given permission to people to freely distribute soundboard recordings of their live shows for more than a quarter century.

But you don't seem to care about any of the relevant facts.

For some strange reason, all you seem to care about is whether Bob Weir has been duly compensated for his hard, hard work all these years.

Let me assure you: Bob Weir has been compensated fairly.

In fact, you don't have to look very hard for a quote from a member of the band saying how wonderful it is that Deadheads freely trade the live music the band created.

Like this one:

"On balance, allowing taping was maybe the smartest business move we ever made." -Phil Lesh, ''Searching for the Sound: My Life with the Grateful Dead.'' New York: Little, Brown, 2005, p. 266.

How about that? Please notice what Phil doesn't say. Phil DOES NOT say: ""On balance, allowing taping was maybe the smartest business move we ever made, but I'm glad we were always very clear with the fans about allowing only audience tapes to be freely distributed."

Remarkably, people here on this forum are now arguing that distributing soundboard recordings was always a risky business because the band wasn't "clear" about its intentions.

My opinion is that is 100% baloney. The support for my opinion may be found in the gigantic mile high mountain of cassette, reel to reel, DAT and CD recordings of Dead soundboards that has been in the hands of fans in one form or another for over a quarter century.

Perhaps you think that Phil Lesh is incredibly selfish because he isn't thinking of all the money that poor, poor Mickey Hart could make if only Mickey had complete control over the digital distribution of every Dead soundboard ever recorded.

Again, I urge people to stop pretending that the Dead are begin generous by allowing us to freely distribute ONLY audience tapes.

That is bizarro world stuff. It's double-speak right out of 1984.


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Poster: teleskier29 Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

Right on...I agree. Why didn't Bobby elaborate on the issue of soundboard rights when he was interviewed by Charlie Rose on 60 Minutes? The topic of "free" music definitely was mentioned in the interview. I can only imagine what Jerry's thoughts on this issue are; I am quite sure he'd be as horrified as I am.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 2, 2005 8:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

You don't know how much Bob Weir makes. You assure me that he was compensated handsomely, but really you have no idea. You have no idea how much a tour costs, how much it costs to play a stadium, how much it costs to fill the gas tanks of tour busses, how much it costs to record, how much it costs to do cover art for cd's, how much it costs to print cd's, how much it costs to hire a staff to book shows so you can work steadily, how much it costs to promote a show, how much a sound system costs...the list goes on and on. You think that Bob Weir is rich, but you really have absolutely no idea. You have a perception of the music business, or the rock band experience, that has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Are you his accountant? Do you have his earnings statement in front of you? Were you at the last Grateful Dead Inc. board meeting? What business is it of yours anyway? You guys quote Phil Lesh like he's a personal friend of yours when you really have absolutely no idea what he's really thinking.
It just drives me crazy that these guys were nice enough to offer a reasonable compromise, when they had absolutely no obligation whatsoever to do so, and you ingrates are STILL pissed about it. I would have just told you guys to screw yourselves, and not even have thought twice about it. Did Phish get this kind of crap when they started selling their shows?

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Poster: tie_dyed Date: Dec 3, 2005 3:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

I agree that Phish is a great band, but I have never compared them with the Grateful Dead. And if you think about it, it's not so much that people are pissed. I think it's more of a sadness. The Dead always encouraged sharing their music. They were about the music, not about the money. And you're right, not everyone knows how much Bob makes. But this I can assure you, he is well off. I mean, just think about the merchandise alone. How many times do you see a Dead shirt, or license plate frame, or keychain, or backpack, etc... The list goes on. I have more Grateful Dead paraphernalia than I should possibly have. Yet I trade shows, I love soundboards. The point is, that something as piddly as this is ridiculous. Even if people are downloading and sharing sbd's and whatnot, there are still million if not billions of dollars generated in selling merchandise and albums. Just because it can be accessed and downloaded online, doesn't mean that people will stop buying albums. This is how they brought the world together.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

The point you made about Grateful Dead merchandise is actually a pretty interesting. How much of that merchandise is actually part of the Grateful Dead's business? I'll bet that 90% (or more) of the merchandise you see with the Grateful Dead's name on it is actually bootlegged.
Have you ever seen a Calvin and Hobbes t-shirt or sticker? 100% of that stuff is unlicensed. 100%! The artist who drew that strip refused to grant anyone the right to merchandise those images. Yet, those images are everywhere.
So how much do we really know about the Grateful Dead's earnings?

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

"You don't know how much Bob Weir makes. You assure me that he was compensated handsomely, but really you have no idea. You have no idea how much a tour costs, how much it costs to play a stadium, how much it costs to fill the gas tanks of tour busses, how much it costs to record, how much it costs to do cover art for cd's, how much it costs to print cd's, how much it costs to hire a staff to book shows so you can work steadily, how much it costs to promote a show, how much a sound system costs...the list goes on and on."

Um.... actually the answers to those questions are not too hard to figure out.

The real question is: how do YOU know that I don't know how much it costs to do cover art for CDs?

Bizarre is the only word for it.

"You think that Bob Weir is rich, but you really have absolutely no idea."

False. I have a pretty good idea. Rich is a relative term of course and I don't recall saying that Bob Weir was rich.

I do recall saying that it should be apparent to anyone that Bob Weir doesn't **need** to squelch the free digital distribution of soundboards in order to live a comfortable life in retirement. If you disagree with that statement, then please explain why Bob Weir needs to squelch the free digital distribution of soundboards in order to live a comfortable lifestyle.

Otherwise you are arguing with strawmen of your own design.

"You have a perception of the music business, or the rock band experience, that has absolutely nothing to do with reality."

Not true. On the contrary, I'm well-read in the subject and I produce and distribute my own records.

"You guys quote Phil Lesh like he's a personal friend of yours when you really have absolutely no idea what he's really thinking."

Now you completely lost me. I quoted Phil from his book and there was nothing ambiguous about his statement. I think it's pretty clear what he was thinking when he said that letting people tape the shows turned out to be a great business decision.

"It just drives me crazy that these guys were nice enough to offer a reasonable compromise, when they had absolutely no obligation whatsoever to do so, and you ingrates are STILL pissed about it."

Sit down and get ready: I'm still angry that Bush was re-elected and that was over a year ago! Such is the life of ingrates like me.

"I would have just told you guys to screw yourselves, and not even have thought twice about it."

But that's exactly what the Dead did as far as I'm concerned. Is there some giant surprise stash of incredible audience tapes from 1972 that is about to be uploaded here? I doubt it.

"Did Phish get this kind of crap when they started selling their shows?"

How would I know?

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Poster: johnny mo Date: Jan 1, 2006 6:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Stop making martyrs out of flip-flopping guitarists

I'm not losing too much sleep over whether or not Bob Weir is able to "get his kids through college".

All I know is this: I'm listening to a whole lot more Grateful Dead right now since I read Rolling Stones' article:"Dead vs. the Dowloaders".

See, I did not know about Archive.org. Thanks to the feud, I now do. And I will continue to support the Dead as I have for the past 30+ years.

I'll do this by continuing to buy Dick's picks and going to see Phil and/or Ratdog in concert.

Is it a pity we can't continue to download soundboards for free? Yea, I think so, but I'm already over it as I'm picking my brain over whether I should listen to something from '67 I was not at or should I try to find and explore some of the 50 odd shows I attended and try to reccolect how I enjoyed then what I am pretty grateful to have the ability, thanks to Archive.org, to enjoy now.

Now, if I could only find someone who has Seneca College from 67 where Pigpen did a smokin' Fire On the Mountain, I'd really be ecstatic!!

Let's all enjoy and be happy we have this plethora, this virtual cornucopia of music to enjoy!!

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Poster: East Coast Date: Dec 5, 2005 9:24pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

I love Tom Waits

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-06 05:24:08

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Poster: bizzwax Date: Dec 5, 2005 11:46pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tom Waits

Tom Waits for no one!

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Poster: Ski Peru Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

Well said, biginjapan. I couldn't agree more.

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Poster: nickteller25 Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

regardless of the petty arguments between you and Chris U., I too agree with your initial statement.

The ownership of product is an unfortunate reality in the business world, which, incidentally is what the GD were conducting...a business. Sure, a business that played music and encouraged free taping for many years; but, even on the Dead's best day, they were in the business of creating music and continue to be. This fact cannot be avoided.

And the compromise they made, AUD downloads and SB streaming is more than fair. They must protect themselves and their business.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbiginjapan Date: Dec 5, 2005 1:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

As a musician, and an artist, I find this whole 'boycott the Grateful Dead' argument to be incredibly disturbing.

The Grateful Dead's taping policy was originally based on the idea that it would be treated, and received, with honor, clarity, and ethics. The honor has turned into the honor among thieves. The clarity has turned into a half-dream state of misconceptions and faded idealisms. The ethics has eroded into some kind of bastardized pop-legalese which, with a few clever adjustments, makes wrong and right the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure that this arguing, or threatening of boycott, or screaming amongst 'fans' is not what The Dead had in mind.
But for me this dialog (which really isn't dialog at all) asks the age-old question: Does the hard-core fan actually love their favorite celebrity, or do they actually hate their favorite celebrity? This anger for the Grateful Dead did not just pop out of thin air, you know. This is something that has been boiling and festering for years and years. Why? How did it start? Where will it stop? Are they happy that the Grateful Dead gave in to your demands? Clearly they aren't, so, at what point will they be happy? My guess is: never -which is really too bad.
So good luck with your boycott. I hope you win. Stick it to those bastards in the Grateful Dead! Or, no, not the Grateful Dead per se, but their record company...or...not them, but...their....I don't even know who you're sticking it to, really. Do you?

For the record, I'm not a Republican. And besides, the concept (or luxury) of using art to pay one's bills is hardly a right-wing conspiracy. As far as I can tell, there isn't a political party in existence whose platform outlines an entitlement to get free Grateful Dead music.
And good luck to Chris U's record production company. I'm sure that he gives away all of his product for free -which is very admirable. Kudos to him for achieving the impossible.

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Poster: MushroomEagle Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:20pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

RIGHT ON IS RIGHT....
Look i know in archive and in certain band member's minds we shouldn't be posting about this anymore because its an "old and tired subject" to them...but to us it is what kept us going for 3 years. All of the solutions in the world will never EVER change someone feeling robbed when they are given the world for free...and then 3 years later are forced to give it back. I know i can stream the Hi-Fi and i can use a streamripper to get it on cd eventually. I don't care.
To all those who think we are all spoiled brats and "back in my day we didnt have the internet etc etc" - you know for damn sure that is NO reason to feel peachy about what has just happened. You know how this makes the GD legacy appear. You know that if you were an up and coming and were told you could acquire the greatest music of all time for free...and then in a year told you had better have gotten all you needed - you'd be looking for another nipple to suckle.
Just like the rest of the GD world i want GREAT sounding lossless recordings. THOSE FANS - who would spend the time to find the right show...to spend hours downloading the files and continuing to ruin your already loaded hard-drives...to spend even more time converting and properly labeling and archiving the files for our own collection, and then burning and re-burning the tracks to CD's - are a rare breed. Others with a fleeting interest WOULD deal with streaming the hi-fi's bc it requires less time and effort. Ever since i learned of this site i've attempted to acquire all the dead one would need...but obviously i wasn't fast enough. Nor could i be. And like others have said, it is less anger than sadness.
THESE are the beginnings of ends of bands - when they begin to see a site like this as a BAD thing. A site which has probably single-handedly doubled the fanbase of the grateful dead (which in turn will stir interest in phil & friends and The Dead and Ratdog and all other side projects). This site gave me hope that if enough die-hard deadheads attempted to acquire each and every dead recording (GOOD SBD RECORDINGS MIND YOU) then our children and our childrens children will learn about this wonderful band. RESTRICT the flow of information (:cough:cough:bobweir:cough:cough:) and you will be forgotten much too shortly.

Remaining members of the Grateful Dead hear this:
Read these posts and feel the vibe of anger and sadness from the most loyal of all fans - deadheads - and realize that not retracting this ban on lossless soundboard downloads will hurt your current and your potential future fanbase forever.

and i apologize for replying to "an old post" and all that and i know its not archive's fault.

[mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-01-17 05:20:27

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Poster: mcglone Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

howdy,

your passion is obvious, but NOBODY owes you anything my friend.

sniff around, look under rocks, challenge yourself on how to find that special show.

pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again - your reward is out there...

ian

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 16, 2006 11:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

C'mon sir, I know *you* know I'm asking people to drop it here. Enough redundancy...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 16, 2006 9:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: pointer to better forum

hear this

Of course your intended targets are not reading at this site. A better site may be the Dead's own, which includes a forum, see deadnetcentral.com.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-01-17 05:25:01

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Poster: yippierb Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

You are absolutly right. What about those pre compression boards That came from radio stations allover the world. It took almost 15 years to get the 71 Taft Theatre show out of the grimey grip of WEBN(clear channel communications) in Cincinnati. And my DJ buds recorded all the New Years shows that were brodcast..Those sbds didn't come from the band. What's with the folks that suggested we all go back to trading? Man OH Man! I spent decades trading cassettes. Now all that analog stuff has faded with the magnetic deterioration and usage. My old trading network is gone. I am almost 50 years old, I sure don't have the time, money and energy to start trading from scratch again. I have a family to take care of. "I'm a left handed soul in a right handed world" as Nick Da Greek would say. For most of the last year I have struggled with the process of trying to get some of these shows from the LMA onto disc. I ask for help and just get sent to the newbie page or some link for tapers little friend etc...I dearly love this band. I am saddened by some of their decisions. This sight has been a God send Thank You Brewster, and everyone at LMA for your work and dedication. I believe the band should put everything on the archive. I'm not even broaching the Garcia estate's behavior. GD obviously have the ability to improve on 98% or more of what we would have available on LMA on their commercial releases. Free the music. Thx LMA

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Poster: Aaron G. Date: Dec 10, 2005 8:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT news

this is to everyone not just the guy i am "replying to" you know there are ways to record streaming internet i do it all the time so find a computer geek deadhead and get taping before they hack proof or remove it all and then buy some from the band they got plenty of my money over the last 20 years and i also have over 2100 bootlegs of all sources including the ones i found on here that is why i immediatly downloaded 10 shows a day till i had all the ones i did not already have this stuff was on here long enough[moderated]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:23:30

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:24:01

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 10, 2005 8:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

This is not just to the guy I'm replying to, who was responding to a message over a week old now:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-10 16:24:17

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Poster: darkstargirl Date: Dec 17, 2005 3:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

sorry, i was laughing too hard. i guess i should have cited this. and by the way, thank god metallica never gave anything away for free. if they did, it would be much harder to avoid....still laughing

Poster: pookie Date: November 30, 2005 09:40:44pm
Forum: etree Subject: This is NOT good news


At least Metallica has never given out free soundboards, it always has been about the money $$$ with them. Metallica is upfront with thier greed. Streaming soundboards is NOT good news. :-(

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 17, 2005 9:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a discussion going on a month old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: Carpe Diem Date: Dec 3, 2005 4:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news (streaming only)

I must agree with those who feel that the old format that allowed one to stream or download the soundboard recordings should be reinstated.

Over the years, I have supported the band by purchasing virtually everything that has been released (e.g. Dick's Picks, all of the studio recordings, all of the other live releases, the Vault series, the complete Fillmore West set, etc.). (If the band wants to know, it can be verified since I have purchased more than 90% of it via the Grateful Dead website.) I believe that there are many other folks who have done the same thing. In addition, we have attended(and continue to attend) so many live shows.

The ability to download soundboards has probably caused some people to avoid purchasing official releases, but it has also helped the music flourish and spread to new fans. There has probably been little net impact from an economic perspective.

The band can do what they want because it is their music from a legal perspective. However, the whole experiment would not have happened without the long-term loyalty of the Deadheads. In one sense, it is our music too.

In any case, my view and hope is that downloads will be restored quickly. In addition, the band should continue to release material and people should continue to support the band by purchasing official releases. It is the best solution for everyone.

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Poster: manwich74 Date: Dec 4, 2005 3:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: This is NOT good news

I agree 100%. This is good old-fashioned horse-trading. What's the difference between trading sounboards via snail-mail and downloading them? Downloading was just the next logical step in the evolution of trading. This is all about greed and money. Aren't they making enough off of us? I too buy DP's, DVDs, t-shirts, and all of the other stuff. There was a fine balance. Who os behind all of this? Bob Weir? Mickey? The lawyers? Anyone notice that Bob is getting $45 - $55 per show for playing in theatres and clubs? What the hell is happenning here?! Thank the Gods for Phil. He seems like the only voice of reason in the band for the last 10 years. I guess this latest maneuver will drive the trading of sbd's underground on the internet just like another very popular bittorrent site some may have used some time ago and which still exists, if you know where to look!

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Poster: L. Rosley Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:11am
Forum: etree Subject: Thank you! Faith restored


This is fabulous news, and a fair compromise. We once again have access to hundreds of shows via streaming.

Streaming lets lets us hear great shows and to explore the different eras of the Dead's music. It also lets you preview shows before downloading. If you hear a show you like, you can go to one of the alternative sites for a soundboard, or go to one of the trading sites. The ability to hear a show while working at your computer is fabulous.

By the way, check out PhilLesh.net. He was falsely accused, and says "I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book."

Thank you Archive.org. Thank you Grateful Dead -- my faith is restored. Now I'm off to buy some Dick's Picks.

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Poster: fremontbob Date: Dec 14, 2005 9:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Good news, are you kidding me? The coveted soundboards are not present, and glossed over by you, Phil, and everyone else. This is outragous. Jerry always believed once the music was played, it should be available for everyone because the event was already in the past. In other words, brush off the dirt, and move on to the next song, show, and year. How much money do we really need boys? I must've missed the memo because I was under the impression that the band cared about their fans and big money wasn't the goal. My how times have changed. Attitudes also. I know where the smoke is coming from, but the mirrors must be a flashback to the 80's. Get on the ball boys, and put the SBD's back. Your fans that still remain are on the cusp of turning their backs on you for good.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 14, 2005 10:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

You are responding to a 2-week-old post. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Thanks.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-14 18:31:32

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Poster: SpaceTrout Date: Dec 15, 2005 4:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I expect to get shafted by George Bush type politicians and the like. I never expected it from the GD who have benefited from support from people like me for 40 years. I just called the merchandising company and took my name from their newsletter list. I will never buy another GD anything. Betrayal is not a strong enough word to express how I feel about this.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 15, 2005 4:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Again, you are responding to a topic over two weeks old. The most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. In case y'all missed the memo, it's
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565
Thanks.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-12-15 12:20:50

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Poster: SpaceTrout Date: Dec 15, 2005 6:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Why are you telling me what I can and cannot say about something that is obviously upsetting to a lot of people?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2005 7:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

because it is what it is, and most of us hardcores have moved on (at least as far as posting goes). we don't have to like it - but this site is about so so so much more...... peace man

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Poster: Tracedef Date: Dec 1, 2005 4:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

For anyone to say this is "good news" simply shows that they do not understand the work involved over years and years in cleaning up, fine tuning, and maintaining soundboards. These sbds are not from the Grateful Dead archive, but cultivated and cared for since the day they were recorded via a grassroots community of dedicated fans. To say that sbds can be traded via mail, but not the internet is simply hypocritical at best. I strongly believe that this feeble attempt to correct the mistake by streaming sbds will ultimately prove to greatly increase the trading of official GDM releases and will more importantly destroy goodwill between the remaining members and their fans.

I don't believe for a second that audience recordings were taken down by mistake and the fact that Bobby and the drummers signed off on this shows me how out of touch and misguided they are. Unfortunately this boycott could be for life. We have Garcia forever and we WILL trade sbds but without archive.org as a resource. This is a lose, lose situation. Trace.

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

One critical thing to remember is that the current situation, with the SB restored for at least streaming, is a temporary situation. It is not the last and final decision. What the folks who are still angry are forgetting is that we had nothing SB available to us a few days ago- now we have something.

We still need to be vigilant to get where we want to go, but NO war (except maybe the invasion of Granada!) was won as a result of one battle.

One thing NONE of us has a right to is to demand the LMA do ANY of this- it is their kindness to do it at all. If someone wants to set this same thing up someplace else for download, there is nothing to stop them, and I for one would volunteer on the legal time to protect it from injunction. Those who have read my posts the last week know that I feel the Dead have nothing to enforce when it comes to live musical performances they authorized to be recorded and distributed- this is the plain legal truth- as strange as it may sound to some.

I will repeat that there is no current federal law regarding bootlegging- the 1994 law has been declared unconstitutional and is pending appeal in the US 2nd circuit court of appeals. Bootlegging at this second is subject to state law only, and the Dead would have to file for injunctions in every state where they performed and where a recording was made- way too expensive to contemplate. Even so, all those state statutes speak to "unauthorized" recordings.

So thanks LMA, as none of us have a right to demand you even run this archive. And thanks to all of you and your voices being heard, so we are now halfway there.

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Poster: wb4 Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I am with you dude.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive HOORAY!!!

Thank goodness this debacle is over. Thank you for the update, Brewster, and I appreciate the candor as well. i just want to take this opportunity to once again thank everyone at LMA for their great work and service you provide. I would like to wish all of you a very happy and prosperous holiday season!!!

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Poster: Zeno Marx Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive HOORAY!!!

I hope the streams are of 192kbps straight, VBR of at least that quality, or better.

GREAT NEWS!

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Poster: SkeeterJones Date: Nov 30, 2005 7:24pm
Forum: etree Subject: how is this news?

this is nothing different. nothing's changed.

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Poster: jacmcd Date: Dec 26, 2005 4:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Is there any way there can be a search option that filters the Soundboards so that I am able to see what I can download

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 27, 2005 6:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: search for AUD

This might help:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=51297

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Poster: Papa deadtender Date: Dec 27, 2005 1:39pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: search for AUD

Diana, I tried the link you posted and drew a blank. There were several shows that I could NOT download on the list (actually, I checked about a dozen and all checked were for streaming only). I think the person was asking if there is a way to type in something in the search bar that would give results of ONLY the shows you will still be able to download. Thanks so much for your help. And I appreciate your words in this forum. It is too bad there is such a split on what is/should be done, but I say just enjoy and remember all the boys (and girl) gave us. Peace

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Poster: JRimLik Date: Feb 9, 2006 2:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

can someone please explain to me what the hell is going on here? Why are the soundboards available for atreaming only? I have paid them tens of thousands of dollars over teh last 25-30 years, I am noty going to start paying them now just to get a soundboard. There is a boycott moveent starting against all official Grateful dead releases. I am joining this movement. if anyone else is interetsed polease email me at aebs05@carolina.rr.com. I always bopught their official releases, as a way of saying thanks for being able to get free borads all these years. But now that hey have cut that off, I see no reason to thank them anymore, this is just plain greed and it is sickening. So again, joing= the boycott - they will earn that they are shrinking their consumer base by doing thids, not expanding it. GIVE US OUR BOARDS BACK! WE HELPED FINANCE THEM TOO! WITHOUT ALL OF OUR DOLLARS IN THE '70'S AND '8-0S' THE DEAD WOULD HAVE DIED!! WHAT ABOPUT ALL THE FREE ADVERTISING WE GAVE THE BAND BY TRADING TAPES AND TURNING ON NEW HEADS ALL THESE YEARS. AND THIS IS THE THANKS WE GET!! I SAY SCREW 'EM, GIVE US THE BOARDS AND WE WILL START BUYING YOUR PRODUCTS AGAIN.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 9, 2006 8:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

please explain

http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php#215

Meanwhile, please don't continue to hash this old topic out here. If you must continue to vent, choose a more focused, direct discussion venue such as the Grateful Dead's own forum, deadnetcentral.com. Thanks, mod.

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Poster: JRimLik Date: Feb 9, 2006 6:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

Rastamon - you hav been very helpful during this process. You bring a lot of positive enrgy and I really appreciate your help. I wish everyone out there shared your enthusiasm to help people during this difficult period instead of pontificating. I met some real jerks through this process, and was also reminded there are still a lot of very cool dead fans out there like yourself. Thanks again. (I hope you are right about it all coming back 4/1!! from what I hear from my friends in the Bay Area this has caused a major backlash in PR and sales and the rumor is they will put the boardsd back and things will be back to normal.)

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 10:48pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

IMO,Diane is a good person and to my knowledge has never been rude or obnoxious in her posts as some are. Please lighten up, or at least light up! My conservative political comments/rants now go to the "Democracy_now" forum here. Plenty of hate america yahoo's there to unload on.
And yup! on APRIL fools day(4/1/06-get it?) China's comin down on us also.(as well as the SB's returning)
So lets get together and feel all right! No use crying or being rude over spilled milk. Take my posts with a grain of salt and humor(at least the etree ones)
I'm 58 and holding, ("but it's medication officer!")
And this forum is good fun and from the amount of Chinese food I eat, I'm practically chinese myself-lol
I jog, I burn, I like Michael Savage AND the Grateful Dead-i feeeeeel your pain! what a balancing act! whew!

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 11:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

uh oh, there goes my memory (again)....JRimLik...yesterdaze "deal" .....ooooops!
and there goes 3/19/77
wrong forum, but can somebody go to bt.etree.org and seed the GD 3/19/77 show? pretty-pretty-paleeeeze?
hugz & medication to all!

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Poster: tivo Date: Feb 9, 2006 11:38pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

I can feel the love coming back! Let's close the rift!

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 11:41pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

and a homophobic hug to you!!
Actually, MSavage could use a good dose (60's style)a bit rude he bee

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 8:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

probably someone who has not been online since October, the rant was tooo massive lol. All the SB whoopla just helped me to discover bt.etree and other sites.
Besides, it's all coming back on 4/1/06, i promise

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 9, 2006 8:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

I will continue to ask people to move on, or simply to catch up on past posts and FAQs here without their adding additional venting posts, no matter how late to the topic they are.

More background for those who missed it is collected here:
http://deadnews.blogspot.com/ (check its archives)

Meanwhile, here would have been an existing FAQ for you:
http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php#226

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-02-09 16:39:10

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 8:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

right on!

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Poster: JRimLik Date: Feb 9, 2006 6:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD FAQ

You are an idiot, everyone here has been very focused on this, you obviously missed my original email. I suggest you get your data current before trying to get on your high horse. David Lemieux sent me a personal thank ypou for a reason, if you even know who he is. This is not an old issue, nor is it a dead issue - it is becoming more and more active every day now. People like you who sit around and accept medoiocrity are the reason China will kick our tail in 20 years, if not sooner.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 9, 2006 9:57pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Please consider all prior discussion that has occurred on this topic in the last few months, rather than rehashing anything here, now. Thanks.

Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

If you must revisit the topic in an internet forum, go to David et al's site instead, deadnetcentral.com, one that is specific to Grateful Dead issues. In contrast, this forum is a broad-based venue for fans of thousands of other bands.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-02-10 05:57:24

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 9, 2006 11:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

holy toledo batman! other bands here other than the Dead!!!!!? I'll have to check it out!
(Think I may start a thread on the threat of Deadhead fundamentalists-heh)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 10, 2006 12:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Think I may start a thread on the threat of Deadhead fundamentalists

Nah, we even had threads about that already, so more of same would again just be a rehash. ;) (If you mean "Deadhead funtamentalism" as, "There is no true band but the Grateful Dead.")

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 10, 2006 2:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

you're right, I'll just stick to hash....

http://www.archive.org/about/contact.php

I've just spent 2hrs checkin out all the above, what an education and a beautiful place for headquarters-nice pictures on the walk to work photo's
You guys rock!


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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Feb 9, 2006 2:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

i am still part of the boycot, but this thread is WAY to old.
my boycott does not apply to Phil though - hey Phil - where the heck of Love Will See You Though vol 2 ???
lol - luv u Phil

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Poster: ascheylus Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:42pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

NOT GOOD NEWS

THE BOYCOTT CONTINUES

FREE THE SOUNDBOARDS

A SPINNER

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Poster: LaMaskin Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

You guys are crazy....I have been trading for 27 years and this is the first time the band has ever put any type of limit on our ability to trade the music.

The SBD recordings were obtained with the band's permission and have been traded for years and years with the band's permission, the ONLY change is that the GD wants to start selling SBD recordings to us in greater volume than before.

Thus, in order to ensure that we will pay them cold hard greenbacks, they are making them unavailable to us for free...it is that simple.

This is about $$$ and the band's need/greed for it in the post Garcia era (who buy the way is turning in his grave, AGAIN!)

The only solution is a full boycott of all GD merchandising material until the band honors it's original commitment to making the music available to all for free.

Don't we all continue to spend money at GD merchandising on their remasters of SBDs that we have already anyway? YES WE DO or they wouldn’t even be considering continuing to digitize and sell them, they would have packed up shop years ago. They are making money already on their versions of SBD recordings, this is about GD making MORE money….

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

My boycott has officially ended as well. This seems like a decent compromise (temporary or not). Thanks for the explanation and hard work Brewster, Matt, Diana, etal.
Big thanks to John Barlow and Phil also - you guys rock!!
Wish the sbds would go back up too, but one can't have everything in life. The situation is a sh*tload better than it was last week!!

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Poster: spinneresque Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive


Hi everyone, I just started this petition and am starting this blog so people can talk and debate about the issue here ad infinitum.

Here is the website:
http://keepingitrealgd.blogspot.com/

Here is the petition:

Grateful Dead music inspires in its fans an extraordinary passion, hence this news of pulling the archive is breaking the heart of thousands of people today. We see the Grateful Dead historically as a representation of something pure and good. In order to love something so much, you have to trust it. Despite the stereotypes and social mockery, we have proudly remained fans of the Grateful Dead for all these years, defending it and ourselves because we knew in our heart that this music we are following is good, and pure. Some say we have no right to protest this mid-game ‘changing of the rules.’ But what those people are not accounting for is the MILLIONS of hours that Deadheads have collectively spent in combining, uploading, remastering, patching flawed recordings.....voluntarily, and out of love, and trusting that it would be shared freely. In our opinion, at this point to stop the free sharing of these recordings is so sad, and so wrong. Jerry is gone, and he has no say, and we all know what he would have said. This is unfair to us. So much work has gone into building the archive. Please let it stand.

You can sign it here:
http://new.petitiononline.com/02108108/petition.html

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Poster: kymusicjunky Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:46am
Forum: etree Subject: A Rant & Some Good News

First off I want to say The Archive is a great thing, even though I've seen some pretty hateful remarks on here about having something taken away from us that we didn't necessarily deserve in the first place. IMO the SBD's do belong to the band, even though they've been circulating publicly for decades. Even though those same recordings have been altered, remastered, improved, etc. over the years doesn't make the original material any less the property of the band performing it. Bootleg, live, traded, etc. recordings have been around forever but have always been of murky legality at best. So, enjoy what you have and appreciate that ANY of this music is available for free. We are the recipients of a lot of good will and hard work by a bunch of nameless people, from those who originally recorded these shows over the last 40+ years to the administrators of this site that allows access to those recordings.

Stating that, let me say that I DO think this sucks. I discovered this site by accident about 6 months ago and was dumbstruck by the sheer amount of live and studio material available for simple download (I had to clean the drool out of my keyboard, haha). I downloaded as much as I could and still have a lot on the HD to put to disc. I was very upset when most of it disappeared overnight. But I don't think bitching, boycotting, petitioning, etc. will have any beneficial effect for anyone. Now we all have to go back to more difficult ways of trading the music.

Which brings me to my next point (I promise this won't last forever). I have found at least one good email service that will allow the transfer of files of up to 1 GB directly to anyone's email address. It's called yousendit.com. Upon sending the file, it is stored on their servers for 7 days or 25 downloads, whichever comes first. There are no logins, passwords, etc. You just go the site and type in the recipient's email address and attach the file. I tested it last night and it took about 10 minutes to send a 100MB file (which I think you'll find is comparable speed to downloading SHN's from The Archive). It worked perfectly.

Um, and it's FREE!!!. I don't know exactly how the company that owns the site is able to do this for free or how long this will be available, but if anyone is interested in trading shows this way, please let me know. I was able to download everything that was posted on The Archive (and a few things that weren't) through 1969. I want to get every possible minute of GD material I can (I'm kind of a completist and a great fan of the band).

The prospect of blanks & postage doesn't interest me very much (pain in the ass). I think this is a good opportunity for traders to send files fairly quickly and with little work.

This is an open post to anyone interested in trading shows. Please get back to me here or contact me directly at kymusicjunky@yahoo.com.

Thanks everybody and don't be too pissed at the Dead. Do you see any Rolling Stones concerts on the Archive? No. We're luck to have anything at all.

Dave

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

"IMO the SBD's do belong to the band, even though they've been circulating publicly for decades. Even though those same recordings have been altered, remastered, improved, etc. over the years doesn't make the original material any less the property of the band performing it."

Then lobby your legislator to change copyright law.

Anyone who is arguing now that the Dead did not permit the free trading and distribution of soundboard recordings is 100 percent totally full of it.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

It's called "donating to the public."

And before one other person pats himself on the back and refers to others as "selfish" for simply being astonished that what was permitted for the past 40 years is now somehow verboten, let me remind you of something: members of the Grateful Dead can afford to have major organs in their bodies replaced.

To suggest that I or anyone else is selfish merely for wanting to keep what was given to us (i.e., soundboard recordings with at LEAST an implied right to distribute them freely) they are smoking something very special.

Why not share some of THAT, my friends?

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Poster: kymusicjunky Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

A few points. I'm not calling anyone selfish. That's your interpretation.

I'm not arguing that the Dead didn't allow trading of SBD's. I'm saying they have the right to change their policy because they retain ownership of the recordings as far as I'm concerned.

To bring into the argument the fact that the remaining members of the Dead have plenty of money and can afford to allow fans to trade SBD's is ridiculous. I know they have money. But it doesn't take away their rights to have control of their own creations.

I just think there's too much anger in the discussion that won't get anyone anywhere. I personally think the whole thing sucks, but I didn't write & perform the music in question, so I have no real say in the matter.

Right now, I'm just looking for other ways to hear the music. That's all I care about.

So, let's quit bitching and trade shows another way.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

"A few points. I'm not calling anyone selfish. That's your interpretation."

I didn't say that you called anyone selfish. Other people (with an attitude similar to yours) made that charge expressly.

"I'm not arguing that the Dead didn't allow trading of SBD's. I'm saying they have the right to change their policy because they retain ownership of the recordings as far as I'm concerned."

Yeah, you're saying that. I hear you saying that.

What I'm asking is: what is your SUPPORT for that conclusion??? How is it that the Dead can be crystal clear for 35 years that they don't care that people are freely distributing board tapes of Kresge Plaza 1970 and then claim to have the right to control the distribution of those tapes???? Not the tapes in their vault mind you, but tapes that OTHER PEOPLE HAVE OWNED FOR YEARS???

What is the basis for this right? It would be helpful if you refer to the Constitution of the United States or some relevant Federal Law in your answer.

Otherwise, it seems to me that you are just an apologist for whatever the band wants to do.

"To bring into the argument the fact that the remaining members of the Dead have plenty of money and can afford to allow fans to trade SBD's is ridiculous."

No it's not ridiculous. It's not ridiculous to bring that up when someone is calling me "selfish" for asking very plainly: how is it possible for the Dead to tell me how I can distribute a recording that I have been freely distributing, with their permission, for 10, 20, or 30 years????? And if there is no legal basis for the Dead to do so, then what other basis is there except that I should somehow be "generous" to these very rich men and stop distributing soundboard tapes for free because it eats into their potential earnings (allegedly, mind you!).

"I know they have money. But it doesn't take away their rights to have control of their own creations."

You're right. On the contrary, the fact that the Dead has money gives them the POWER to THREATEN TO SUE PEOPLE if people don't do what the Dead say.

But I don't think the Dead have a legal basis to do anything at this point.

I think John Barlow agrees with me and he knows quite a bit about intellectual property.

"I just think there's too much anger in the discussion"

Then stay out of it.

Thanks.

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Poster: kymusicjunky Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

Jeez, I just wanna hear some damn Grateful Dead. haha

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Poster: kymusicjunky Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

To reiterate, does anyone wanna trade shows via email? I have found a FREE site that allows very simple transfer and multiple downloads of up to 1 GB file sizes.

Post a reply here or contact me at kymusicjunky@yahoo.com.

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 9:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Rant & Some Good News

"To reiterate, does anyone wanna trade shows via email? I have found a FREE site that allows very simple transfer and multiple downloads of up to 1 GB file sizes."

So how long do you suppose we get to do that until the Grateful Dead says "Stop it, you are eating into our paychecks" ?

After all, they wrote and performed the music.

Don't you have any respect for Mickey Hart's "rights"?

The sarcasm is 100% intentional.

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Dec 1, 2005 9:21am
Forum: etree Subject: 1 GB Email Attachments!!

Sounds like an easy, excellent way to avoid the middle men in all of this.

40+ people have emailed FREEDEAD2005 at yahoo.com to organize our material and begin sharing it however we can. Most have lots and lots to offer.

Send me an email there to discuss further.

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Poster: loonylobo Date: Dec 5, 2005 10:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Well...I always like the aud tapes better because you couldn't hear Bobby that well...(sarcasm - but a note of truth me in this wacky debate). If the board tapes are out there shouldn't they stay out there, regardless of the trading medium? You'd think a bunch of anarchist hippies (or have they "grown up"?) would love the archive's ability to share the love via the sbds...Oh well...gotta keep your Day Job when Push Comes to Shove...Or, should I say, "We used to play for life, now we play for silver"?

Glad to see the fans are still rabid and Phil has a backbone...

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Poster: qman64 Date: Dec 25, 2005 3:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Cyni Lauper.......

I said MONEY............MONEY CHANGES EVERYTHING!!!!!!!




"But for goodness sake don't bite the hands that feed you!!!"

I think that the DEAD s/b pleased and feel blessed that people are still seeking out their music(I know I am) and vica versa. That's always what the Dead have been about! Give and Take!
Cause and Effect!

I tell my wife "There is 2 types of perspectives to look at when a "jewel" like this falls into your hands: You can horde it and sell it to a "demographic customer base" or you can share it freely to whomever has the passion and spirit to search for it!" I prefer the latter. Nothing is "more valuable" than seeing somebody "light up" for the first time listening to music which hits something that "canned" or "popular" music never reached!

THE FAT MAN ROCKS!!!!!!!!!
Long Live the search for quality music of any kind!!!!
Thank you to everyone who has the spirit of sharing in their hearts!!!!!

I'm not angry as some are but I am DISAPPOINTED and I hope that upon REFLECTIONS there will be a proper revelation!

INSPIRATION>>>>>>>>>MOVE THEM BRIGHTLY>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you and Happy Holidays!!!!

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Poster: dead trail Date: Dec 25, 2005 11:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Happy Holidays to all the hard working souls at the LMA. Special greetings to Diana Hamilton and Brad Lebanc who had the unenviable task of refereeing the GD madness. Thanks for helping get it here in the first place and thanks for the patience as it evolves (is it still evolving?). I hope that all those that came here seeking Dead look around and check out some of the many other talented bands residing here. There's a vast wealth of audio here for the listening. I've been turned on to many interesting sounds at this site and even managed to drag my lazy ass out and see one of them live (Lotus at the Tribeca Rock Club, NYC- they were fantastic!).

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:40pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Best news I heard all year! While I would have loved to get everything I wanted in terms of downloading, and while I still believe we have a legal right to burn the soundboards that were made by audience members, this resolution is a very good compromise for the time being.

I said before that I only streamed the soundboards, but I do have a strong desire to start collecting. Through this debacle I have met several people willing to get me started. Earlier I said we all needed to make lemonade out of lemons, and I have a nice large batch of lemonade at this point!

Thanks so much archive for being so human and admitting that. I will be a very happy camper by the weekend! Right now I am listening to nugs, but I will come back "home" soon.

Now lets get back to posting "best ofs"- I have come to know so many outstanding versions of favorite songs this way through all you input.

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Poster: deadheaded Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Excellent idea (and thanks to the Archive, big-mouth Dead Heads who love their tunes enough to fight for them, and band members with some love left in their circuits).

Now...what are the best audience shows ever?

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Poster: Brian Baker Date: Nov 30, 2005 3:48pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm sure you'll enjoy this one, it's what got me into the Grateful Dead: http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=14856

Gotta say, I really don't buy the listed chain of events, but the current (hopefully not the final) result is certainly better than the first.

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Poster: bangtailpoet Date: Nov 30, 2005 4:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Amen to that...you'de never know 8/6/71 was an aud! Anyone who doesn't have this show go grab it immediately!

While not a perfect resolution, this is perhaps better than I was expecting, especially within such a short time frame.

Thanks to Brewster and everone else at LMA for sticking with us through this, and for doing such a great job. To paraphrase Bill Graham, "There's not the best at what they do, they're the only ones who do what they do."

Seriously, though, it would be great if we could have all the reviews back, including those for shows that went "dark" a while ago (8/27/72, 9/21/72, etc.).

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Nov 30, 2005 5:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

OK, the aud downloads are more or less back as zips and lossless, etc.
The 1971-08-06 show does have good sound, thanks.

And as other threads mention, definitely the 1969-05-03. Vocals are low but the instruments are right in your face.

& another high quality aud from the Workingman's period is 1970-09-20

It was an audience tape that first turned me onto the GD- nothing unusual about that for many of us.

That tape was really primitive, yet still caught my ear - on a mono Craig cassette deck sitting on the grass in back of our high school, the taper was playing a previous night's Saint Stephen - I stopped and listened.

Thanks to that crude audience tape, I went to the next scheduled GD show, my first rock concert ever, April 1970, with Miles Davis supporting the Grateful Dead.

So, the week before Nov. 22 I spent a long day trying to find the "best" or at least my favorite available Saint Stephen off the Archive...

and came up with some beautiful versions.

"All he lost, he shall regain"

Let's hope so.

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Poster: deadheaded Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=14856

Thanks! This show is amazing.

Not to diminish the well-reasoned approach to what has happened to the SBD recordings, but as someone who has done a fair share of sampling 65-95 on these, I'm not sure there is a pressing need to possess them all hardcopy.

Just my opinion, and I liked the previous comment about "rotating SBD" availability. Hell, the DEAD haven't had this much press in awhile! What's the old saying about any publicity being good publicity? ;') LOL

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Poster: SkeeterJones Date: Nov 30, 2005 8:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

YOu know whats messed up?? I thought this was the deal when i signed the petition! I was POd that they took the SBDs away from download! man! this change only makes things the way I thought they were!! it was worse than I thought! but WTF? aren't SBD recordings actually AUD recordings, meaning recorded by an audience member? how can they take that stuff away?

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Dec 1, 2005 9:41pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hi,
I just wanted to know if lo-fi streaming would be an option again in the future? All of my access to Archive has been streaming while at work and the lo-fi always seemed to work better for me than hi-fi.


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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

We will look into the lo-fi option. We thought the hi-fi would be better, but I understand the problem (and with streaming you cant just wait).

No promises, but we will look into it.

-brewster

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Poster: azk Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

i just read the phil lesh message about GD shows on archive. it seems as though he wants all shows available (both soundboard and audience recordings). why are soundboard recordings not going to be restored for dowload as they were before?

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Poster: China-Rider Date: Dec 4, 2005 10:02am
Forum: etree Subject: BETTYBOARDS??

Does anyone have any info about the so-called "bettyboards" of the 70's? Who owns the rights to them?? They were auctioned off as far as I can tell, and were then distributed to traders... Does that mean anything??? Let me know

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Poster: fuzzybear Date: Dec 4, 2005 11:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: BETTYBOARDS??

Conduct a web search for "what's become of the Betty's?"
All the information you could ever want about the BBD's is on that site.

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Poster: skwimite Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Well, shucks!
When I first found out about gdlive.com and then the archive, I couldn't believe it. All this great music now available to download, for free!!! Had there been a palace coup? I felt like a kid in a candy store. In the "real" world, this NEVER happens, but then, The Grateful Dead have always been different. Have I purchased less official releases since having access to the archive? Maybe. Probably. I can't blame the business interests of the GD for trying to reign things in a bit, though I'm sorry to see it happen. The only thing permanent is change. We will survive. Thanks for the memories.

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Poster: John H Date: Dec 5, 2005 4:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Why don't you separate the soundboards from the audience shows on the "directory page". This way I don't waste time looking through a bunch of shows that I can't download. It would save me a lot of time. I don't really care to listen to shows over the internet sitting at my computer.

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Poster: Ruggedwaters Date: Dec 5, 2005 5:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

The whole thing sounds kinda Phishy.

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Poster: gregling Date: Jan 30, 2006 10:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Not such good news, really.

What irks me is that a lot of people don't have broadband access to hear these streaming shows.

Further, many shows seem to exist only in SBD form so there is no audience alternative available...perhaps some of the original audience tapes were lost over the past 30 years since tapers, traders, and collectors had access to superior SBD versions of the same shows along with the guarantee that they could access and share these.

Why would we bother keeping an alternate, fall-back, (perhaps inferior) collection around "just in case" they changed their minds someday?

And who could have predicted this particular change?

Any word on what Healy says about his role?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 30, 2006 11:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Hi Greg, you're replying to a 2 month old topic that has been thoroughly hashed out here already. Best continue further discussion/Healy feedback fishing, if necessary, at a venue such as deadnetcentral.com. Thanks. -mod

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Poster: gregling Date: Jan 30, 2006 11:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

perhaps it has been "thoroughly hashed out" by some over a brief period, but obviously still not resolved for a lot of people.

I am sure that I am not alone in being blindsided by this long after the fact...some of us do have lives outside of Dead discussion boards after all;-)

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion...I will seek info elsewhere.

This post was modified by gregling on 2006-01-30 19:15:16

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Poster: hopatcongjoe Date: Dec 27, 2005 2:49am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I have been a Dead Head thru almost 25 yrs of the good and bad of their music. I have spent piles of money on 8 tracks, cassettes, LPs, CDs, concerts, etc.......When I have some spare bucks, I buy some Dicks Picks. Are things ever gona get back to normal on archive?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 27, 2005 7:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

We are getting back to normal by no longer dwelling on this thread. Please don't continue, thanks.

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Poster: vamarty Date: Jan 2, 2006 6:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Yep...I've removed this site from my favorites. The Archive is now irrelevant. I'm moving on to the torrent sites...at least they're not hiding the sbds there. Streaming...what a bunch of malarkey.

AMF.

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Poster: Kola67 Date: Dec 1, 2005 12:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hey Chris U: I'm not a legal expert but you're probably 100% correct about the fact they can't legally rescind stuff they've knowingly put out on the Archive for 3 years, not to mention the past 30 years.

I also agree with the guy who sent to letter to GDM. My love of the Dead was completely rekindled when I discovered the archive, and it led me to notify all of my friends of its existence, restart relationships, tape trading and going to see Ratdog, Phil and some cover bands. To Dennis McNally: I would call these Grateful Dead values. To the dummies at GDM, it sparked my interest in buying more than a few DP's which I previously hadn't paid attention to.

I for one feel Bob, Mickey and Bill have really insulted and alienated the most loyal and dedicated group of fans in the existence of fandom. Whether they apologize or not, to me they have demonstrated clearly they no longer have Grateful Dead values. I will never have the good vibe watching them onstage and would forever more be wondering if the ONLY reason they are up there is to milk a few more bucks from us. because of that I can no longer go see them. Phil I will go see.

having said that, people are entitled to their opinions and Chris you are attacking everyone who gets up here to say something that is important for them to share. If you are that fixated on the legal elements of this quagmire, start a legal proceeding to get the boards back on the website and more power to you, but take it easy.

peace to all, we will always have the music from a purer time, and Jerry will always be with us

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 3:38pm
Forum: etree Subject: As Jim Morrison once sang: Wake Up!

Kola

I understand what you are saying. I am very familiar with the tendency of the "community" of "Deadheads" to migrate towards the path of least resistance.

And I understand the desire of some people to "share their feelings" about how "lucky" we all are that the Dead weren't always uptight and greedy about recordings of their live shows.

I encourage people to post here and discuss the issues but it would be nice if people stuck with the facts rather than endless postings alongs the lines of "why can't we all just get along."

I strongly sense that a lot of people either don't get it or they simply don't care (i.e., "audience tapes are great and you should be happy the Dead let us trade those!").

Those who don't get it seem to be living in denial.

The future will bring us one of two possibilities:

(1) the Dead will return to the days of two weeks ago and let fans continue to download the board recordings that fans possess and choose to upload to Internet Archive; OR

(2) the Dead won't return to the days of two weeks ago and fans will continue to download the board recordings that fans possess and choose upload to a site other than Internet Archive.

That's it. That's the universe of possibilities.

Now, the ball is totally in the Dead's court. When (2) becomes as real and full-fledged as this site was two weeks ago, what are the Dead going to do? Huff and puff and blow another house down?

I'd sort of like to see that happen, just for kicks.

What do you think will be the end result?

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re:CLAP ! CLAP ! CLAP !

yeah!! alright ...some great news to help ease the pain...

thank u !!!

This post was modified by Fishead on 2005-11-30 20:33:20

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Dec 8, 2005 12:10pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Brewster....we all are a part of the GD, band....fans....tapers. Put those SB's up again! Jeeze, what a no-brainer! (no, not me...well.. sometimes like Bob)
Call their bluff (whoever "they" are)
what a bunch of blowhardyness! heh
Bob Weir is a good man, don't do the GW crapass on him, Jerry loved him and so do I. (uh oh, here it comes!)
Bob has not pulled the RD SB's (like...he owns them?)
Just DO IT! shhhhheeeeeezzzzzzzz!

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Poster: nuchdig Date: Dec 9, 2005 9:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

We've heard from Phil, we've heard from Bob. Go to Mickey Hart's web site and read what he has to say. Looks like Bobby has alienated himself, nice goin' bro! If this IS one big family then Bob needs a time out!

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Poster: fnords unseen Date: Dec 9, 2005 12:07pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I don't know about the ethical problems involved, and the legal issues are way way beyond me. Copyright laws have always been iffy, and the internet complicates further that convoluted legal mishmash.

But I can say that, in my single paticular case, the Archive has made money for the Grateful Dead.

I was not a huge fan five months ago. I had American Beauty, Best of (don't kill me) thats it. You can see where this is going...

The Dead, obviously, they function as a completely different creature in concert. It was not long until I was locked in the death spiral into musical depth that is all too common for those who know the band. I just bought two Dicks Picks (7+8) and Blues for Allah. I would not have without Archive, I would not have become a true addict without the SBDS. So let me cry out: "Free the soundboards!" because surprising as it may seem to the buisness people who advised this action, but it's possible that the band's and the fan's interests are one and the same. It's ludicrous to concieve that I am the only one who is a fan almost exclusively because of the Archive. From a musical standpoint, share the love with as many as possible. From a marketing standpoint, here is a whole new generation ready to buy (not steal) CD's

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 9, 2005 10:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm sorry, the most constructive thing you can do here now is *not* to go on discussing this here. Please see
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565
Thanks.

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Poster: passage Date: Dec 10, 2005 1:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hi Diana,

Will this thread of posts be saved? I keep thinking that it's really a document of some sort. I mean I'm sure someone can do some kind of study on web commmunities and their impact on blah blah blah, you know? There seems to be some real sincere communal thrashing about here and I guess I'd like to know that it won't just disappear into the cybersphere. For what it's worth -- thank you all for your efforts trying to find the right path with this one.

Peace for the coming New Year --

Jordan

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 10, 2005 2:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

AFAIK, stuff will be here for people to be embarrassed over years later. :/

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Poster: gdesilet Date: Dec 4, 2005 1:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Streaming only. this is supposed to be good news?!?!?
who are you kidding?
must be some real gullible folks out there.
hmmmmm....
after allowing soundboards to be made and encouraging and/or not discouraging trade of them for 30 some years.
sounds as if we're headed back to the dark ages of postal mail.
streaming.... only get to hear 'em on funky computer speakers.
sounds as if the elite, rich corporate attitude has indeed come alive within the dead again. jerry would probably be pissed. seems as if bob is behind all of this. thank goodness for phil, but someone needs to use their cohones to smack bob down, if only just for good measure and because he probably deserves it anyway. how anyone can believe that trading these soundboards cuts into the collective dead income is beyond me. this stuff encourages us to purchase from the dead. it is free advertising for them and always has been. get real. this is a band that has over 100 recordings available for sale via their website at any given time. and i, for one, have been spending a great deal of money on these guys since 1967.
if soundboards cut into their income i will eat my hat, and it is wool.
streaming is only meaningfully available to the wealthy and those who are willing to sit around their hot little geek machines all day. what a nice, elite little world we are making for ourselves... really a sad, pathetic commentary on our society.

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Poster: hesgone Date: Dec 4, 2005 6:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

As a marketing professional myself I can't believe the disastrous error the boys are making here. Legally, I do believe they have the right to protect those SBD recordings that they so graciously allowed us to enjoy, preserve and share all these years. They did this because it was a core value of the band to let folks listen to and share their music "after they were done playing it". This was a stroke of genius on their part because it created one of, if not the greatest, community of consumers ever assembled. We all became disciples of the band (brand) buying up all they could offer us, turning on our friends and now our kids. The open sharing and today access to these treasures from the past are what set these guys above all other bands. You could not have created a better business plan.

I believe most of you, like me, are the greatest financial supporters of the Dead. We still go to the shows (just saw Phil in Boston), buy the Dick's Picks, the books, the DVDs, the beautifully mastered compilations (waiting for Garcia plays Dylan), the silly merchandise from the GD store, etc. Why the band would want to alienate this loyal following and revenue stream is beyond me. This unfortunate decision on the band's part has left a very sour taste in my mouth and will surely effect my financial support for them in the future. I for sure will not be forking over $60 do see Ratdog anymore. Phil will continue to receive my support, as it appears this was not his decision and counter to his philosophy.

Thanks,
he's gone


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Poster: mchugh33 Date: Dec 8, 2005 1:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

streaming?
why, that's how I always record from ArchiveDotOrg:
stream it thru windows media player 10 and click "save as" and save it when the "stream thermometer" reaches the end of the timeline.
Now, if the stream is encoded so that the "save as" is grayed out...but that's never happened yet on archivedotorg.
I'm so glad I started saving 1969 shows in October.
FWIW: all those shn and flac and vbr snobs must have always had fab boots. I always had hissy tapes...just about anything is better than the old tape trading days for us unconnected types. So when they rant against regular MP3s I say...aren't you special.
Even if I never get another "new" recording, I've learned to like what I have.

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Poster: jerry's son Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:08pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I'm really thinking this wont last. mayby a year. hang tight. technology is going to take care of this situation with the soundboards.

In the spring millions of people are going to buy blue ray players that are going to come free in playstation 3.Massive storage on small disc is very very close. Blue ray burners are going to be in computers within the year. these disc are gonna hold 50GB for starters.

The toothpaste is out of the tube. The horses have left the barn, and the genie is out of the bottle. any way you want to slice it.The dead are making deadheads Angry and its not gonna be worth it to them. strictly from a business standpoint.

This time next year send me 2 blue ray disc and a 40cent stamp and ill send ya my 80GB of flac soundboards all nice with labeled metadata on the flacs.

Let alone the bandwith that will probably be available 5 years from now. Just Keep them HDD Backed up.

It's Too late and they probably know it. Mayby they thought they could get a bump on 2006 profits. but after that its: "Let There Be Songs To Fill The Air."

They Should Focus ON GD Vault versions Are Better. worth paying for over the free soundboards. IMO they are better.but not worth $20 for a concert.
They should lower the price for the downloads and pump them out faster. revenue would be through the roof at $10 for a flac show.

All the while LMA stoking the fire of the deadheads. pumping them up into a frenzy so every deadhead feels he needs the BEST available version of every show. That way mickey harts offspring go to a nice college and we jam out on some Nice crispy soundboards that are cracklein with energy.

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Poster: Dragonlipz Date: Dec 2, 2005 7:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Brewster,
Many thanx for the wonderful work you've done over the years. It has brought us all much pleasure and I truly appreciate the service (as I've said many times before!)
Still, this decision - to pull the SBD's off the net smells like the very stuff that the band stood up to....why did they start thier own label and tell the big boys to take a flying jump? What's next? Maybe they can be the house band for the next Republican Convention....

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Poster: dharmaderek Date: Dec 3, 2005 1:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Hmmmmmmmmmmm Can you say "ivault.com"

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Poster: Clarence_fan Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:08pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

This is not good news for me. It is very disappointing, and regardless of every argument justifying it, it leaves me with a terrible taste in my mouth. It can't touch the love I feel for the music (especially the old stuff), but it absolutely makes me feel like not buying any more official releases. That's just how I feel, beyond any defense the responsible band members might offer.

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Poster: cringle Date: Dec 26, 2005 8:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Ugh. What a sense of ENTITLEMENT on display here.

You can still ENJOY all of these SBDs any time you like. The only thing that has been taken away is the ability to POSSESS them.

Yeah - its a huge bummer. But it was always a priviledge and never a right.

So chill out, light up, and stream a show. Be thankful for the shows you were able to download.

And Grateful Dead Management: make ALL the shows available for a small fee each - and maybe charge a premium for premium shows - and you'll probably make more $ than releasing one show at a time and charging too much for it (via "The Download Series" at dead.net).
We cant wait the rest of our lives for these shows to be released one at a time!

<- thankful for the 20-odd kind SBDs I already have ;-l




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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 27, 2005 7:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Time to just wrap this thread now, thanks!

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Poster: Dosed Sailor Date: Dec 2, 2005 4:49am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

So whats next? are they going to tell us we cant trade aud tapes made in front of the board?
This reminds me too much of the controvercies of taping FOB back in the late 80s and the 90s.
All the crap about respect for the band and the taper section is for the fans and the FOB tapers are disrepectful.
Hey we just wanted the best sounding tape of the show!
Whats wrong with that.
If they didnt give a SB patch then the hard core tapers went FOB.
I remember Cal Expo 91 Let it Grow all the FOB tapers got busted.
I dont know who it was but some one said to Healy do you realy beleive the tapes sound better from back there!!!
You should have seen the look on Dans face....Pricless.
But the hole gig of unauthorized tapeing in front of the board was so over blown.
So are they saying the SBDs that have circulated for years are now unauthorized?
What happened to when were done with it they can have it?
The SBD were the only shows that I down loaded from this site and now ther gone!I think its total BS!!!
Phil you rock...
Cant wait to see you on this tour and make a geat tape as well

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Poster: East Coast Date: Dec 6, 2005 4:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

What constitutes SBD? I just went to Sept. 15, 1982 show and it says "Master Sondboard Cassette > PCM > CDR" I have heard less audience on some AUD tapes. This is no way a SBD. It is for streaming only.

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Poster: Taper Malcolm Date: Nov 22, 2006 4:15pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I don't understand still somehow why you can't download shows that were already radio broadcasts. They broadcasted so many shows in cities I used to tape them live over the air in the taper's section as well as getting audience tapes.
I used to think it was ok to help newbie friends get started sometimes thinking some shows were ok for trading cause they were already brodcasts many nation and or worldwide. We all still buy their stuff if it comes out, like Ticket To New Year's, it's too slow though, where's the rest of the New Years broadcasts to buy?
Who's to say something you taped from the radio dosen't belong to you? Well, glad you can still hear them for those of us can afford broadband, yikes. I used to think broadcasts were public domain to help publicise the band, did someone blow it by selling tapes, oh no....
Well, thanks for everything anyway, good people at Internet Archive.
Cheers, Malcolm

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 22, 2006 5:27pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

this particular website needs to do what it feels like it need to do to stay within the parameters of what the artists have requested. if that incudes the exclusion of fm broadcasts "so be it" - go somewhere else my friend.' either that, or stay here and trade with us. just don't whine like a pussy - it is unbecoming - broadband challenged or not. This site is beautiful and provides a whole lot of us with free forum, trading site, and audience download site - we cannot ask for more - nor shoud you. hop on with us - or leave us alone.

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Nov 22, 2006 5:41pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

wow! I hit "See Parent Post" It's the longest friggin thread EVER!! Malcolm, dire means pussy in the nicest way, he loves kitties! I'd agree concerning FM...but...
It's all been re-hashed here, ad nauseum. Peace

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 22, 2006 5:54pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

no cosmic - since it has been rehashed through a 100+ post thread, i pretty much meant pussy as "pussy" - lol - ie shut up or join us - this is so so so so so old. thanks for the backing though my friend. i thought this was so behind the LMA stance by this point. whether we agree or not - it is so oooollllddddddd. it was time to move on months ago - those that cant - go to speeding arrow and download the mp3s - leave us the fuck alone :)

( i mean that in the nicest of way of course )

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Nov 22, 2006 6:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

For Malcolm

I turn on the tube and what do I see
a whole lotta people crying 'don't blame me'
they point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
spend all their time feeling sorry for themselves
victim of this, victim of that
your momma's too thin and your daddy's too fat

get over it get over it
all this whining and crying and pitching a fit
get over it get over it

you say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
but you might feel better if I gave you some cash
the more I think about it, old Billy was right
let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
you don't want to work, you want to live like a king
but the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

get over it get over it
if you don't want to play, then you might as well split
get over it, get over it

it's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
you're making the most of your losing streak
some call it sick, but I call it weak
yeah yeah yeah

yeah you drag it around like a ball and chain
you wallow in the guilt you wallow in the pain
you wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
got your mind in the gutter, bringing everybody down
you bitch about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

get over it get over it
all this bitching and moaning and pitching a fit
get over it, get over it

get over it get over it
it's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
get over it, get over it

This post was modified by cosmicharlie on 2006-11-23 02:11:42

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 22, 2006 6:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

i just hate to see people belittling or not seeing the big picture in Brewster Kahle's vision. A few fm broadcasts of dead shows does not even count as a drop in the bucket in the true digital library (as cool as those shows may be to us). Kahle's vision is truly one to hold to heart. As far as I know - he is really the only one doing it - i mean, look at the written archive he has stored so far - pretty impressive. Plus, letting us flap around on here.... pretty cool site. No room for any of us to bitch - whether newbies or not. I'm pretty appreciative of what the man has done as well as his damn fine staff. Ive said enough - gotta eat.

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Poster: Taper Malcolm Date: Nov 23, 2006 9:44pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Yo, I love Internet Archive, etrees and all the groovy stuff man. Read books here, watch movies here, got broadband specially to listen to shows here, christ, I gotta live here, too ya know. Its alright, I'm glad this is a place of free speech, too, something I supported since the 60s in Berkley. I been there, man, been maced with tear gas for it even, for thinking for myself and questioning authority, for attending the peaceful demonstrations, and I'm really not trying to whine about it or need sympathy from anyone. I been wanting to help contribute to the community somehow by uploading some shows, I see where there's some holes in the lists here, but what's all this about no more uploading? Friends say my DATs are some of the best in the world, that I got so many thousands of hours I'll never get to listen to them all, so what? I'm grateful and don't care, merely thought maybe a few fms ought to be reconsidered, for all the rest of the great fans, jeez, sounds silly what happened to me. Reading all these posts about others that were sore an bummed made me wonder though, well I guess it's just tough, those musta been anchient posts. I love that sheetkickin music. I tried to follow the taping policies, making sure those I traded with didn't blow it by selling any, for the sake of the best band in the world, from the Rock Hall even. I'm ready to just forget it all an just keep my own vault for my own self and pals to hear, is there still a problem, well scuse me man. OK, so maybe I shouldn't brought back up a subject with bad vibes, that was wrong, seriously, excuse me, never in my mind to cause so much pain, whoa. May love and peace always be your friends. The band was cool, I'm grateful for all their bountiful musical offerings. Let da good times roll, may there still be songs to fill the air, if I gotta play em with my own strat, sometimes the songs are just songs of our own.
Cheers, Taper Malcolm

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Poster: tombolo Date: Nov 30, 2005 1:32pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

peace through compromise and understanding

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Poster: Alex Chase Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I for one am willing to trade all the shows i've gotten as well as sbds and other stuff. I for one don't mind the sbds not being available for download, as they are already there to listen to. That's all that really matters. You can still spread the love and give great shows to your friends. There are many other websites for live music trading as well. As with that, the many other websites contain material that was never available for download at the LMA.

Additionally, I think people left out the fact that it was usually the Dead engineers who allowed sbd patches and at their good graces that they're own engineering work was released and available for free for trade. There is a reason why sbds sound so great to begin with, and it starts with the engineer. Who has ever thanked the engineer for giving us the taste of pristine Dead we have grown to love?

I don't know if there are many people out there who would remember what was happening at the Isle of Wight festival in England, but there was a group of selfish activists who thought that they were entitled to get into the shows for free without regarding all the work it takes to make the band sound good. There are other people besides the band that are getting paid by you, so please let's not forget them.

It's good that people feel so strongly about the great music that was provided to us, and I feel grateful that I was able to download some of the shows before they went away, but let's all be a little more open-minded about this.

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Poster: Creston Date: Dec 5, 2005 3:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive


Brewster and the LMA Folk,

Thanks for putting so much time into this whole operation so many can come and enjoy the different varieties of music they seek.

I am happy to have the SBD's available for streaming once again. I also appreciate the solutions that are arising within our ever creative community.

However, I do look forward to the potential for downloads of SBDs to return in the future and hope that GDM (Bobby, or whomever is behind this) has the courage to reverse a decision which is really only restricting the efficiency of an open and evolved distribution system...the LMA.

Streaming for now...Creston

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Poster: jimw Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

amen

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Poster: gonzo t2 Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Material Girl

I just junked my dead collection for modonna

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Poster: kctomato Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

Message to the Dead

if you need the money

TOUR MORE

PLEASE!

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Poster: brendanmcauley Date: Dec 22, 2005 6:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

This was a suprise at first but the more I think aout it; it was inevitable. So many things have been said about this that I doubt I offer unique expression, however, I do have a solution. Not to insinuate there is a problem, but clearly soem thing is being taken away form peoepl who liked what they had, so let's call it potential rectification.

1. Make this site dead affiliated and charge heads a lifetime membership fee to upload music and download music for life. Obvious ecommerce concerns about sharing ID #'s etc, but not everyone has highspeed access so their friends can burn them the dickspicks or any show anyway.

2. Charge a life time fee of 200 bucks. Get 2 million people to buy in and you have 400 million bucks. If you can't get 2 million people to buy-in then why worry about taking it all off the archive anyway. The overhead here is minimal compared to the cut offerd CD distributors fo dicks picks- this is self propelled. Fans deliver the music to themselves!! They choose what they want. The Dead will never make 400 million in digital music sales in their lifetimes with out the best marketing of all: people talking and sharing. There needs to be wide varieties of dead music available. Just one song off ona set list makes a head not buy the disc. Is there any dicks picks that doesn't have China>rider? How many scarlet>fires?

Only fans know how to give other fans what they want.

3. Partner with hardware vendors and sell ipods or of the like with certain amounts of shows pre-stocked- for an extra fee of course.

4. The lifetime fee of say 200 bucks is minimal, and serves the community well. You could likely even charge 500 bucks and just release a certain ammount of shows at a time from the master dead vaults and throw them into people who get 'x' ammount of licenses', for example. The ulitmate is when you offer 25% to the REX and the music in its digital vibe starts making a real difference. We all win.

I can head marketing...

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Poster: Bill Roman Date: Dec 23, 2005 1:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Good News and an Apology: GD on the Internet Archive

I don't get what all the fuss is about. brendanmcauley wants to market lifetime memberships, and everyone is boohooing about the SBD's being only available in a stream... We can still trade on the USENET as before, and any idiot with an FTP program can download the mp3's from etree. The only thing you can't do anymore is get the full quality SHN's from LMA. I'll tell you what, if all you guys want to do is listen to your favorite show, the MP3's are pretty darn good! No, they aren't top CD quality, but so what? They are a thousamd times better than AUD recordings. So, I think everybody should just listen to the MP3's, and try to trade the SHN's from the USENET as before, if they have a real desire for a particular show.
Bob obvously doesn't know jack about the Internet, or he would have discovered archive.org a long time ago. I actually agree with Bob, the LMA makes it way too easy to get these recordings. If you are a REAL deadhead, then all you want to do is hear their music. If you are crazy about a particular show, then put a little effort into it and trade it on the USENET. If you don't know how to trade on the USENET then stop being a dumb a** and figure it out.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 23, 2005 1:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Again, it's time to stop rehashing all this here, it's been a over month now. Thanks.

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Poster: brendanmcauley Date: Dec 23, 2005 3:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Okay Diana so you have decided for us all that it is time to move on when ther is no solution yet and besides that who do you think you are? It has not been a month its been 22 days.

Like you are the omnicient one to decixde that the isue is dead?...

Lifetime meberships is fair and easy and allows for good caritabel contributions as well. In 10 years Phila nd Bob will not be touring. The dead's ability to carry the fans and bring fans togetehr is loosing steam with the lack of shows. This forum is more well attended than some of their respective shows.

It makes sense to encourage online relations wiht the band becuase te virtual relationship isall that will be left oen day.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 23, 2005 3:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Hi Brendan, I'm a moderator, and have watched this board erupt on the topic since Nov 22. Here are a couple posts for context in case you missed them before:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50879
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=50565

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Poster: brendanmcauley Date: Dec 27, 2005 11:30pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

Diana:

I am sorry to buist yor balls and all, I am sure youa re a sweat heart and am sure you do great thinngs for the archive. Pardon my anger at this but I just hate people telling me what to do and how to eand when to, express myself. Drives me batty....

Peace..?